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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old August 28 2011, 03:30 PM   #91
Andy Mangels
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
I wouldn't call Rick Berman homophobic in the "hate" sense, as in "I hate all gays and they are the root of all evil and they should all be killed." But I do think there might be a case to be made that he was homophobic in the "doesn't understand" sense. As in, "I have no idea how to write about gay people, and I'm afraid of screwing it up, and it's all just a bit icky anyway, so I'll just push it over there in the corner and pretend it doesn't exist."
Never having dealt with him personally, I'm only going by the too-numerous stories from people who did work with him, and by the extraordinary lengths that I was told that everyone involved went through to make sure he didn't see a copy of the Section 31: Rogue manuscript before it was at the printer.

Do I think he's a gay-basher? Nope. I classify them as homopsychopathic. Or some such word.

Do I think he's afraid of gays, probably irrationally? Yep, hence the label of homophobia.

Whether he disguised it well - publicly - in Hollywood-speak of ratings or boycotts or "not necessary" or "no good stories" or etc. is immaterial to his actions and what he said and did in the offices.

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
Among humans, certainly, and presumably among all other Federation races too, or else they wouldn't be in the Federation. But surely there's an opportunity to address the issue with non-Federation races who have different cultures and moral values - after all, that's the entire point of there being aliens in Star Trek at all.

On the other hand, you did have a lesbian Klingon in Taking Wing (and I just have to point this out again because I love it and it makes me laugh every time - she was on board a ship called the Vaj). And I'm sure I remember a mention of a Klingon male having a husband somewhere. In both cases I got the impression it was fairly rare but the individual was still respected as a warrior.
We weren't able to address that actively in early stories, and it became less important to after Rogue. While Rogue was not the first book to feature GLBT characters, it was certainly the most prevalent book to do so, and did so in a major way, and was a best-seller, and got huge amounts of worldwide press. And after it, Trek editors and writers felt fully OK to include GLBT characters or themes if they wanted to. And they did. The Berman-dam had been broken, at least in the books.

As to the lesbian in Taking Wing, and the ship name, I'm sure base humor wasn't below Mike or I at times, though I don't recall that was the specific reason, nor is there a reference on Memory Beta to the ship name, so I can't recall. I believe the full name of the ship meant something in Klingon. Any puerile humor would just be a side effect.

And we did have a Klingon with husband in Forged In Fire. But that was many years after we were going to break the Berman-Dam in the Marvel Comics series that didn't happen. And they were different stories. The point with the FiF scene was actually a humorous case of mistaken identity in the midst of carnage, not meant to discourse on Klingon social attitudes.
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Old August 28 2011, 05:13 PM   #92
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

I know this isn't Trek, but just take a look at the current Torchwood series.
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Old August 29 2011, 02:22 AM   #93
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

I'd be interested to see a transgendered character in ST. And, I don't mean the trill who aren't, really, or another alien species with some sort of non-human gender scheme. They're more like hermit crabs moving from shell to shell. I mean I'd like to see a human chacter who is transgendered (no sci-fi gimmicks) and how they exist in the context of ST's future. Not the center of the plot, or even the main character, but in the mix with everyone else.

And if there already has been such, please point me in the right direction and I'll be much obliged.
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Old August 29 2011, 02:43 AM   #94
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

Well, it wasn't exactly played with sensitivity and grace (to say the least), but "Profit and Lace" implied that Quark underwent an actual (yet reversible) sex change rather than just dressing in drag when he was impersonating a woman.
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Old August 29 2011, 02:55 AM   #95
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

Mysterion wrote: View Post
I'd be interested to see a transgendered character in ST. And, I don't mean the trill who aren't, really, or another alien species with some sort of non-human gender scheme. They're more like hermit crabs moving from shell to shell. I mean I'd like to see a human chacter who is transgendered (no sci-fi gimmicks) and how they exist in the context of ST's future. Not the center of the plot, or even the main character, but in the mix with everyone else.

And if there already has been such, please point me in the right direction and I'll be much obliged.
IIRC, one of the characters in New Frontier is a hermaphrodite. But asides from that, I don' think there is any evidence of true transgendered characters (unless of course you include Soren in "The Outcast", but that is more gender neutral).
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Old August 29 2011, 03:14 AM   #96
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

David cgc wrote: View Post
Well, it wasn't exactly played with sensitivity and grace (to say the least), but "Profit and Lace" implied that Quark underwent an actual (yet reversible) sex change rather than just dressing in drag when he was impersonating a woman.
I positively loathe Profit and Lace, as much as I otherwise loved DSN. Casual gender reassignment as a gag. Yeah, great stuff. Maybe it's funny if you don't deal (or haven't dealt) with such issues personally, but I found it distasteful, myself. It was an unfunny mess of outdated gender stereotypes.

Captain M wrote:
IIRC, one of the characters in New Frontier is a hermaphrodite. But asides from that, I don' think there is any evidence of true transgendered characters (unless of course you include Soren in "The Outcast", but that is more gender neutral).
Right, the hermat. Alien. The Outcast was a nice try, but IMO, a failure to "do" gender/sexual issues on TNG.
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Old August 29 2011, 08:32 AM   #97
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

We had a crewmember in The Sundered whose gender switched on a regular basis. It was based on a heterosexual-transsexual friend of mine (not transgendered). But his/her species was kind of transgendered.
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Old August 29 2011, 01:56 PM   #98
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

Andy Mangels wrote: View Post
We had a crewmember in The Sundered whose gender switched on a regular basis. It was based on a heterosexual-transsexual friend of mine (not transgendered). But his/her species was kind of transgendered.
Thanks, I'll go take a look for that one!
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Old August 30 2011, 06:48 PM   #99
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

This thread inspired over an hour of discussion on the topic on our G and T Show podcast last Sunday (Aug. 28). I hope if you listen we don't upset anyone, I think it is a good discussion you will enjoy. (I quote a few of the responses here in the discussion.)

http://www.gandtshow.com

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Old August 30 2011, 11:23 PM   #100
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

^^^ Interesting show. Odd to hear myself quoted on a podcast!

To answer the question TeriLynn had about wanting a long-term LGBT couple who has traumas but survives, and at the same time answer your question about not knowing who Etana Kol and Kristen Richter are...

Etana and Richter are a lesbian couple among the supporting cast of the DS9-R books. Richter works as the head nurse in the Infirmary, and Etana used to be a deputy under Ro in the security division before also transferring to medical.

I wouldn't say either of them have ever had major storylines, but they've both always been present and had some limited focus as supporting characters. They haven't really had any major traumas to go through as a couple either, but they are definitely depicted as a loving, monogamous, long-term couple. In fact the reason Etana transferred to medical (other than as a cover-up for an editorial screw-up) was so that the two could spend more time together.

More coming in a PM.

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Old August 30 2011, 11:48 PM   #101
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

I liked what we saw of them, so I'm hoping they're still around post time jump. How long would it take for a nurse to become a Doctor? Because there should be an opening for a new Doctor now that Tarses is on the Aventine.
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Old August 30 2011, 11:58 PM   #102
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

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How long would it take for a nurse to become a Doctor?
That assumes that a nurse would want to become a doctor. She might be perfectly happy being a nurse. It's not like "nurse" is just the apprentice position to "doctor."

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Old August 31 2011, 12:53 AM   #103
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

^Quite right. A nurse isn't a wannabe doctor any more than, say, a drummer is a wannabe lead guitarist. They're complementary roles, different specializations within a team. Things like Nurse Chapel becoming a doctor before TMP, or Nurse Ogawa becoming a doctor by Indistinguishable from Magic, are exceptions.

And presumably it would take as long for a nurse to become a doctor as it would be for anyone else, though I suppose there would probably be a fair number of courses in nurse's training that would also count toward an MD.
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Old August 31 2011, 03:56 AM   #104
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

I didn't mean to imply that all nurses would want to be doctors, and if it came across that way I apologize. With all of the medical problems I've had, I've actually developed a great deal of respect for nurses. They really have to deal with a hell of alot more crap than doctors do.
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Old August 31 2011, 11:04 PM   #105
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Re: Humanoid Sexuality in TrekLit (Minor Spoilers for VGD: Declassifie

Backtracking to earlier in the thread to Andorians (sorry), exactly how do they reproduce ?

I am not trying for titilation here - just the biology. If there are two male(ish) and two female(ish) sexes, how does the (4 lots of ?) genetic information get passed on, fertilisation occur and the foetus grow, and where ?

When a Chan and a Thaan and a Zhen and a Shen love each other very much...
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