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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old September 1 2009, 01:07 PM   #31
Australis
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

not helping. I don't imagine you spend your day designing tights for men. Books, covers, that stuff.

And it's only going to get worse...
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Old September 1 2009, 08:04 PM   #32
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

Tachyon Shield wrote: View Post
Jadzia wrote: View Post

I'm tempted to say that opinions are alright as long as they are clearly presented as opinions. People with opinions should make an effort to not derail discussions, and in return, they shouldn't be hounded for proof. Assertions on the other hand should only be made if you can provide evidence for them.
What's the real difference between an opinion and an assertion?? if a person believes something to be true then clearly it's also an assertion otherwise they would not believe it to be the case and would not believe it in the first place.

What you are saying is that everyone needs to write the words 'In my opinion' in front of every single post they make.
If necessary. If it means that the true meaning and context of the person's statement can be clarified. As I've mentioned several times elsewhere, clarification, correction if necessary, and above all communication are the keys to avoiding conflict.

As a side point in this interesting thread, from my experience, to include seemingly throwaway words like "in retrospect" and "allegedly" and "in my opinion" and "from my experience" - in any form of documentation - is of great value from a legal perspective. It saves a lot of bother in terms of expressing meaning and differentiating between fact, opinion, and argument/assertion, and also avoids unnecessary conflict when interpreting the context. Most of all, while it may not point towards the truth (if it's Truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall ) it could eliminate any potential falsehoods and fallacies that may be derived from what is documented.

Tachyon Shield wrote: View Post
Jadzia wrote: View Post
tachyon shield wrote:
Too many people forget where they are. They forget they are in a forum on a Star Trek Science Fiction message board and somehow get the delusion they are the ultimate scientists and that we are all located in planets Earths ultimate Science academy.
Science isn't based on status, so this first remark isn't relevant. Eminent scientists have the distinction that their work hasn't been done before, and that it adds something significant in the grand scheme of things. But anyone can do science.
That's my point exactly, you've took what I said back to front. I am saying too many people think they are the ultimate scientist and that someone such as me has no right to even suggest something different or new.
If it does not conform to their own scientific understanding or limits then they assume the high ground.
How you handle criticism is key when surviving forums like this.

Anyone can "do science." And indeed, anyone can post ideas on an internet forum. It's only when you encounter other people (again, could be anyone) with even a slight scientific background who disagrees with your methods that then you have to think how to react to them. Is the critic someone with a general scientific background, or a person who also wants to create ideas and pitch them, or are they an expert in that particular field you're entering? What do they have to say to you? And what are your options?

Do you have a dim view of the respondent, treat their words with contempt, and repeat your idea and not take it further, hoping that reiteration and repetition of the original assertion, no matter how far removed from the laws of current science it may seem, will equal acceptance among your peers? Or do you take their words of advice and think for a moment, develop the idea to eliminate your mistakes, take into account the constructive criticism, look for evidence that others may have taken similar ideas and done something with it and thus present them to back up your assertion, and devise a plan B, or plan C, or plan D, or even plan Z, and even show evidence or working that your plan works? Taking the former option might make you look petty and ungrateful. Taking the latter option might make you look like a scientist.

As I said before, reputation may seem like you're fighting an uphill battle - don't, it only makes the uphill battle seem worse and will sully the reputation more - but petty snide remarks against those who want to try will not help either, be they from or even directed against an expert scientist or idealistic ideas man. Even the most eminent scientists may have taken criticism poorly.
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Old September 1 2009, 08:33 PM   #33
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

Like they say in school: If you want partial credit, you HAVE to show your work!

if you're on the right track, and it can be identified where the problems occured, it can be corrected. if your final answer is wrong, you refuse to back it up, and only assert that you are correct, you fail.

A good start to any of these threads would be to provide at least ONE of the following:

-Is it possible using the current understanding of science?
-Would it be possible by making a small leap from current understanding?
-Is there a benefit to the suggestion, or a reason to do it?

Any of those would be of value. An "idea" that's impossible to build (in terms of cost, time, materials, or understanding of physics), and/or has to benefit or reason to exist, isn't much worth discussing in a forum dedicated to discussing science and technology. As a lark in Misc, maybe. Just not here...

then again, the problem poster has been told all of this repeatedly, and is either ignoring it or baiting/trolling at this point, so can't expect much to change.
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Old September 1 2009, 08:58 PM   #34
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

Scout101 wrote: View Post
the problem poster has been told all of this repeatedly, and is either ignoring it or baiting/trolling at this point, so can't expect much to change.
There's a problem poster? who might that be then? do tell.
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Old September 1 2009, 08:58 PM   #35
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

An "idea" that's impossible to build (in terms of cost, time, materials, or understanding of physics), and/or has to benefit or reason to exist, isn't much worth discussing in a forum dedicated to discussing science and technology. As a lark in Misc, maybe. Just not here...
I have to disagree with this. There is nothing wrong with discussing something "impossible". The least of which reason is that how do you know it's impossible without discussing it first?

The problem is that the discussion has to be open with both sides (if it degenerates to "sides") being open to talk about the problems with the idea, how it can be improved on, and what the alternatives are.

It seems some of the threads here get sidetracked with the semantic use of words. On both sides of the argument. This to me comes off as pure trolling especially in cases where the intent of a word can be inferred from the post it was used in.
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Old September 1 2009, 09:09 PM   #36
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

Tachyon Shield wrote: View Post
Scout101 wrote: View Post
the problem poster has been told all of this repeatedly, and is either ignoring it or baiting/trolling at this point, so can't expect much to change.
There's a problem poster? who might that be then? do tell.
A perfect example of playing the Baiting game instead of taking some constructive criticism. Even ignoring what I've said, plenty of others have tried giving you tips towards more constructive threads...

Hell, you've vowed to not start any more threads in here, so you clearly realize that there's a problem. But you'd rather to continue to play games, which is why we needed this thread in the first place...

sojourner wrote: View Post
An "idea" that's impossible to build (in terms of cost, time, materials, or understanding of physics), and/or has to benefit or reason to exist, isn't much worth discussing in a forum dedicated to discussing science and technology. As a lark in Misc, maybe. Just not here...
I have to disagree with this. There is nothing wrong with discussing something "impossible". The least of which reason is that how do you know it's impossible without discussing it first?
I think more what I meant by that is that it either provided no benefit, would destroy the planet, or cost more than the combined wealth of the planet. The pyramid to nowhere (well, a tiny chunk of the way to space, to be fair) is a good example of all three.

Biggest problem, IMO, is a refusal to either support the idea, or adapt it to the situation as it develops. Once you've been told WHY there would be a problem, it's more productive to discuss the problem, figure out ways around it, or if it is worth correcting, rather than insist you are right and everyone else is a moron. If someone with knowledge in the field being discussed tries to help (Electrical Engineers in the magnet thread, for example), better to try and learn something rather than insult people, insist on being right, and that the physics of the situation would change dependent on the scale of the magnet. From there, you can improve the idea, incorporating the new information, or scrap it as a non-starter and move on.
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Old September 1 2009, 09:12 PM   #37
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

I am not a problem poster and I am not the problem this forum faces. The problem this forum faces is the attitude of many posters and their aggressive style of posting.
It's these posters and their attitudes toward others in this forum that has made me choose to no longer post topics. Thread after thread after thread in here get's destroyed and it's always the same people responsible for it's destruction.

If you believe that I am a problem poster than you should feel happy that i'm no longer posting any threads. Enjoy your Sci Tech forum.

What I will find interesting is whether all those people who came into Sci Tech to post in my threads are ever seen again in any of the other Sci Tech threads now i'm not posting threads.
You complain your precious Sci Tech forum is being destroyed, well let's see how much you post in it from now on shall we.

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Biggest problem, IMO, is a refusal to either support the idea, or adapt it to the situation as it develops. Once you've been told WHY there would be a problem, it's more productive to discuss the problem, figure out ways around it, or if it is worth correcting, rather than insist you are right and everyone else is a moron. If someone with knowledge in the field being discussed tries to help (Electrical Engineers in the magnet thread, for example), better to try and learn something rather than insult people, insist on being right, and that the physics of the situation would change dependent on the scale of the magnet. From there, you can improve the idea, incorporating the new information, or scrap it as a non-starter and move on.
Firstly I don't insult people and I especially don't make out other people are morons. Secondly I made clear in the pyramid thread I was just curious as to the size of the thing and what problems it might face. At no point did I say we should build it and at no point did I say it was possible to build.
We saw one of the major problems that this forum faces in that thread, instead of people just discussing it they instead choose to troll me and belittle me. Making me out to be dumb because it would cost more money than the Earth has even when I said the whole point of the thread wasn't to say it should be built but just to consider how big something like that might be.
I found the discussion about the pyramids weight pressing into the Earths crust quite informative. It was an interesting thought exercise but certain people chose to cause trouble.

People need to stop pinning the blame on me and start looking in a mirror.

You think I am the problem? then I guess your problems are over now aren't they. Enjoy.

Last edited by All Seeing Eye; September 1 2009 at 09:29 PM.
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Old September 1 2009, 10:14 PM   #38
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

I don't usually chime in on matters like this, but what ought to be fairly self-evident is that the moment an argument becomes personal, you effectively lose the argument. Attacking a person instead of the subject is like admitting the evidence you're arguing isn't strong enough to win the day...in addition to coming across as petty and childish. Argue the argument, not the poster. Take "you" and "I" out of the discussion and it generally stays civilized.

If a poster's ideas as absurd, a reasoned counter-argument will make them look more ridiculous than sniping at them.
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Last edited by Maurice Navidad; September 2 2009 at 07:05 AM.
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Old September 2 2009, 12:52 AM   #39
Australis
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

Tachyon Shield wrote: View Post
Scout101 wrote: View Post
the problem poster has been told all of this repeatedly, and is either ignoring it or baiting/trolling at this point, so can't expect much to change.
There's a problem poster? who might that be then? do tell.
I thought we were talking about noknowes
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Old September 2 2009, 05:48 PM   #40
All Seeing Eye
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

Australis wrote: View Post
Tachyon Shield wrote: View Post
Scout101 wrote: View Post
the problem poster has been told all of this repeatedly, and is either ignoring it or baiting/trolling at this point, so can't expect much to change.
There's a problem poster? who might that be then? do tell.
I thought we were talking about noknowes
Who?
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Old September 2 2009, 09:16 PM   #41
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

Go backa few months, look up some threads about stopping tornadoes and the like.
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Old September 2 2009, 09:56 PM   #42
All Seeing Eye
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

Australis wrote: View Post
Go backa few months, look up some threads about stopping tornadoes and the like.
Oh yeh, I remember that tornadoes thread. Didn't know who started it by memory though and not seen any other than that one by him I don't think cos I don't recall his name to be honest.
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Old February 8 2011, 12:28 AM   #43
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

Just read through this thread for the first time today. Interesting conversation!

Looking about now almost 18 months since this thread's first life, how do you feel about the effectiveness of this thread? Is this a different forum than it was a year and a half ago?
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Old February 8 2011, 12:53 AM   #44
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

Well, it did change hands, and I'm sure I don't run it quite like Jadzia did. This isn't a forum that requires a ton of moderation. I wish there was more science discussion than there is--this forum leans quite heavily to the "tech" side, for reasons both numerous and obvious.

The loss of certain members has improved the level of discussion but I'm not sure what else to do here.
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Old August 27 2011, 01:15 AM   #45
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Re: Improving your Sci-Tech Forum

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The loss of certain members has improved the level of discussion but I'm not sure what else to do here.
Discuss the success ratio of store bought vs homemade ouija boards?
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