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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 25 2011, 10:30 PM   #1
The Overlord
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Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

By season 7, Dukat went from a non religious Cardassian solider who served what he thought were Cardassia's best interests to what is essentially a demon worshiper who just wanted revenge on Bajor. Was this a good change or not? It is kinda of an interesting idea, but I'm not sure the execution worked.
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Old August 26 2011, 12:15 AM   #2
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

There are certain parts of it that could've been portrayed better (mainly the way "What You Left Behind" was edited), but overall I think he got what he had coming to him.

But I think the best answer to your question is "Covenant." I may be in a minority here, but I think that if anyone has doubts about the overall plotline, the way Marc Alaimo sells it there will soften their objections. To me, it's very clear that Alaimo did his homework as an actor, and did some real research into the psychology and behavior of cult leaders (a role that I think was a natural for Dukat given that what he wanted all along was a cult of personality centered around him).
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Old August 26 2011, 02:12 AM   #3
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

I thought it ruined the character. He was cool before he became a cultist, but then he just sucked.
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Old August 26 2011, 07:00 AM   #4
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

Dukat was always far more interested in Dukat's best interests than Cardassia's, it just happened to be that for a time he thought was was best for Cardassia was for him to have as much power as possible. I didn't see him as a true worshiper in that he believed them to be gods or anything. He just wanted to use/help them because they had similar or closely linked goals, so I've never had as much of an issue with where he went in the final seasons as some around here have.

The execution could have been better, you're right. I think it would have helped if we got to see Dukat develop between "Waltz" and "Tears of the Prophets". Maybe having him interact with the Pah-Wraiths or some senior fellow in their cult, instead of the realisation of that the could help him/he could help them destroy Bajor happening out of sight.
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Old August 26 2011, 02:03 PM   #5
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

I thought he did interact with the Pah-Wraiths, that they actually invaded his mind.

Remember how the Prophets forced the Grand Nagus to believe the way they wanted, but undid it when it was explained to them that it was wrong? I don't think the Pah-Wraiths had any such compunctions, and I think that (ironically considering Dukat's massive ego) they screwed with his free will during "Tears of the Prophets" and that after that he was never the same. (Which doesn't undo the fantastic acting in "Covenant," BTW.)
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Old August 26 2011, 02:09 PM   #6
Jeff O'Connor
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

Count me in among fans of Alaimo selling the change in "Covenant". He was amazing in that episode.
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Old August 26 2011, 02:30 PM   #7
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

What I've always admired in him as an actor is the degree of physical control he has, but not in a way that comes across as stiff or unnatural. We know in the end that he's BS'ing, but the way he says, "Goodbye, Nerys..." Whoa.

I ended up using a frame from "Covenant" as a pose reference for a drawing I did of my alternate-universe Dukat (who is Dukat's "good twin"). I changed the expression to fit my AU Dukat's personality.

Here's the drawing:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=95195

(Please read the description...it'll explain why, in that drawing, AU Dukat is so sad.)

It took a few changes to turn him from "fake-subdued," which you see in "Covenant," to the truly reserved individual he is in the AU, who tends to take things to heart, but I don't think the drawing (of him, anyway...I messed up on the human) would've come off without the great job Marc Alaimo did in that episode:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...venant_099.jpg

(It's funny...while Gul Dukat is still, I keep picturing AU Dukat, in that drawing, fidgeting with his hands.)
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Old August 26 2011, 02:41 PM   #8
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

the way Dukat's character "developed"(using that term loosely) from SOA to WYLB was just a sad waste. He went from charismatic, Machiavellian manipulator to one-dimensional comic book supervillain.
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Old August 26 2011, 02:54 PM   #9
Anwar
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

No, he just lost his self-restraint since he now had access to something that he knew would give him more power than he could've ever hoped to achieve within the Cardassian social system.

To be honest, it could've been done a bit better because his devotion to the Pah-Wraiths seemed like he really cared about their goals. If he wanted to release them simply because he knew they'd kill the Prophets and give him power as a reward for his actions, only for them to possess him in the series finale once they were released, it would've fit the "It's all about me" persona Dukat always had.
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Old August 26 2011, 03:00 PM   #10
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
What I've always admired in him as an actor is the degree of physical control he has, but not in a way that comes across as stiff or unnatural. We know in the end that he's BS'ing, but the way he says, "Goodbye, Nerys..." Whoa.

I ended up using a frame from "Covenant" as a pose reference for a drawing I did of my alternate-universe Dukat (who is Dukat's "good twin"). I changed the expression to fit my AU Dukat's personality.

Here's the drawing:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=95195

(Please read the description...it'll explain why, in that drawing, AU Dukat is so sad.)

It took a few changes to turn him from "fake-subdued," which you see in "Covenant," to the truly reserved individual he is in the AU, who tends to take things to heart, but I don't think the drawing (of him, anyway...I messed up on the human) would've come off without the great job Marc Alaimo did in that episode:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...venant_099.jpg

(It's funny...while Gul Dukat is still, I keep picturing AU Dukat, in that drawing, fidgeting with his hands.)
Neat drawing, Nerys! I've always enjoyed your idea of an AU Dukat. And I'd love the chance to see Marc Alaimo in the role of course.
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Old August 26 2011, 03:28 PM   #11
Jono
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
I thought he did interact with the Pah-Wraiths, that they actually invaded his mind.

Remember how the Prophets forced the Grand Nagus to believe the way they wanted, but undid it when it was explained to them that it was wrong? I don't think the Pah-Wraiths had any such compunctions, and I think that (ironically considering Dukat's massive ego) they screwed with his free will during "Tears of the Prophets" and that after that he was never the same. (Which doesn't undo the fantastic acting in "Covenant," BTW.)
I meant seeing some sort of interaction before what happened in "Tears" and more along the lines of how Sisko dealt with the Kais and Prophets (or how Winn interacted with the Pah-Wraiths) rather then getting possessed. Basically someone to show Dukat the door before he stepped through it in "Tears".
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Old August 26 2011, 04:03 PM   #12
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

Anwar wrote: View Post
To be honest, it could've been done a bit better because his devotion to the Pah-Wraiths seemed like he really cared about their goals. If he wanted to release them simply because he knew they'd kill the Prophets and give him power as a reward for his actions, only for them to possess him in the series finale once they were released, it would've fit the "It's all about me" persona Dukat always had.
I think they messed with his mind to force him to care. Kind of a dark side to what we saw when the Prophets messed with Zek.

Jeff O'Connor wrote: View Post
Neat drawing, Nerys! I've always enjoyed your idea of an AU Dukat. And I'd love the chance to see Marc Alaimo in the role of course.
Thanks. It would be a very different role that would take him completely out of the typecasting that he's typically gotten, so even though I know he never would play the role, it's interesting to imagine him doing so.

Not many people can play an introvert convincingly onscreen, play them subtly but still give you a window into their soul so that you care, but I've seen it done. (I actually think of Harrison Ford's take on Jack Ryan in Patriot Games as a best-of-the-best in that regard.) I think Marc Alaimo has enough subtlety that he could do it. His performance as Gul Macet, who was a more toned-down character, makes me think he would be up to it.

Jono wrote: View Post
I meant seeing some sort of interaction before what happened in "Tears" and more along the lines of how Sisko dealt with the Kais and Prophets (or how Winn interacted with the Pah-Wraiths) rather then getting possessed. Basically someone to show Dukat the door before he stepped through it in "Tears".
I see now. That makes more sense. I'm not particularly bothered by what we ultimately got (except for the poor execution by the producers of the parts in the Fire Caves), but that is certainly something I would've been interested to see.
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Old August 27 2011, 12:10 PM   #13
Jono
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

Yeah, WYLB was put together poorly. The Dukat/Winn parts long like they are over minutes/hours while you have the crew section over days at least, which makes the timeline confusing if you actually think about it.
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Old August 27 2011, 12:17 PM   #14
Jeff O'Connor
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

Other than that editing oddness I love WYLB. But it's hard to ignore the issue on rewatches.
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Old August 27 2011, 03:22 PM   #15
Anwar
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Re: Dukat the demon worshiper, yay or nay?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
I think they messed with his mind to force him to care. Kind of a dark side to what we saw when the Prophets messed with Zek.
Sorry, I should have clarified. Until "What you leave behind" I don't think Dukat ever truly encountered a Pah-Wraith, so up till that point his motives to release them should've been entirely selfish and for himself with no real devotion to them. Then when Winn kills him and they revive him, he's nothing more than their possessed puppet.
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