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Old August 24 2011, 06:40 AM   #451
aridas sofia
Rear Admiral
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I never meant to say that the TOS sets could be smaller than what we saw onscreen, only that the sets we saw in TOS needn't be the only representatives of room height. Some areas might be 10' or 12' high, and Jefferies allows for that. Other areas will need to be 7-8' high, and he indicates that as well. (Our earlier discussion was about Ariel and was based on the TMP sets, which are an entirely different story.)

As for "windows" indicating deck position, who says? The times we see "windows" in TOS-- in Pike's cabin and in the gallery above the hangar deck -- they are a hell of a lot smaller than those "windows" on the exterior. It is arguable from that onscreen evidence that the windows aren't windows at all, and that they are "environmental sensors" capable of showing the view from any of those rectangular imagers (just as Franz Joseph claimed they were). If the huge outside rectangles and circles aren't inextricably linked to the small windows with the rounded corners on the inside, there is absolutely no evidence of where the decks are located. Which is as it should be because the windows were fudged on the model after the scale of the ship was changed, and in no way link up with the deck placement the designer -- and presumably his bosses -- intended.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy your own drawing of the Enterprise "guts," though I find the extensive terraced "stair-stepping" and the huge variety of different craft stuffed in there to be far too different than what was seen on-screen for me to "accept" it as the "correct" presentation. That's the fun thing... trying to make everything fit in a way which works with the image each of us carries around in our head, isn't it?
When I did that cross section I was trying to see whether Jefferies' own cross section could be reconciled with what we saw. If you follow the route I've outlined-- going with a hangar adjusted for distortion, putting the sets where his deck heights allow them to fit, etc -- it works. Even the number of decks in the saucer fits if you count every level I've indicated as a deck. And those oddball support craft seen in the hangar and maintenance areas below? All of them but one were designed by Jefferies (only the repair capsule wasn't). Again, I was testing him, and when you lay out the decks as he indicated and scale his support craft in a sensible way, they fit.

Last edited by aridas sofia; August 24 2011 at 07:05 PM.
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Old August 24 2011, 12:57 PM   #452
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Albertese wrote: View Post
I think it's funny how many people will casually throw out the 24 foot reference to a shuttlecraft's size from "The Galileo Seven" but religiously adhere to the 947 foot figure, which was never explicitly stated on screen.

Weird, huh?

--Alex
It's a 24' shuttle when the rear landing gear is folded back

Just kidding.

To Cary and Aridas: Well, for this thread and project, if the shuttle interior as seen on the screen matches MJ's illustrations, that's great. But if it doesn't, I stick with the on screen version as that's what my project is aiming for: the on screen version of the ship.

Cheers
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Old August 24 2011, 01:15 PM   #453
aridas sofia
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
To Cary and Aridas: Well, for this thread and project, if the shuttle interior as seen on the screen matches MJ's illustrations, that's great. But if it doesn't, I stick with the on screen version as that's what my project is aiming for: the on screen version of the ship.

Cheers
I'm 100% with you. I've been following your thread silently from the start in part because you are actually doing what I set out to do. The only difference is you are taking the existing sets and setting them on a different set of shelves. (Was that a record for using "set" in one sentence?) You're starting with a different cross section. I started with Jefferies' because I wanted to see if it would work, and the cross section I did was just the first step on the road to a 3D model of the interior. The guys I was working with and I only got five decks done before we stalled -- I'm impressed that all on your own you've gotten so far. I guess that says something about the inefficiencies of committee work.

As far as your work goes... hell, what can I say? By the time you're done you'll have built the ship. I can't wait to take a stroll down those beautifully realized sets once you're done!
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Old August 24 2011, 02:55 PM   #454
Psion
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Is anyone else hearing the combat theme from "Amok Time" playing out in their heads as they read this thread now?

Seriously, it's great fun reading this discussion and the insights it provides into your equally fascinating decisions.
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Old August 24 2011, 06:48 PM   #455
Tallguy
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Psion wrote: View Post
Is anyone else hearing the combat theme from "Amok Time" playing out in their heads as they read this thread now?

Seriously, it's great fun reading this discussion and the insights it provides into your equally fascinating decisions.
No, it's more the "Spock theme" with the brainy sounding bass.

Amok Time fight music starts when you say that the bridge faces forward.
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Old August 24 2011, 07:25 PM   #456
Redfern
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Actually, I'm imagining two kids going, "Uh huh!", "Uh, uh!", "Uh HUH!", "Uh, UH!" in the back seat of a vehicle during a long and tedious drive. Then, as their voices grow louder, I imagine Ptrope as the hapless driver finally turning around and barking, "If you two don't behave, I'm turning this thread around and NO ONE will get to enjoy Wally World!"

But then, my mind tends to make bizarre comparisons like that.

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old August 24 2011, 09:01 PM   #457
aridas sofia
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Redfern wrote: View Post
Actually, I'm imagining two kids going, "Uh huh!", "Uh, uh!", "Uh HUH!", "Uh, UH!" in the back seat of a vehicle during a long and tedious drive. Then, as their voices grow louder, I imagine Ptrope as the hapless driver finally turning around and barking, "If you two don't behave, I'm turning this thread around and NO ONE will get to enjoy Wally World!"

But then, my mind tends to make bizarre comparisons like that.

Sincerely,

Bill
You see, this is why I don't post much here anymore. I was trying to make a point civilly to someone I respect and have worked with, and you guys try to make it into a pissing contest. Everything doesn't have to be a pissing contest, you know. Cary and I understand where each of us are coming from just fine, and we respect each other's positions. I thought the OP might benefit from hearing other POVs. If we can't discuss this shit without all the kids gathering around in a circle and yelling, "fight! fight!" then this really isn't a forum. It's a joke.
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Old August 24 2011, 09:07 PM   #458
Tallguy
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

* sigh * That was the point of my previous comment. Compared to the out and out wars that have gone on previously this has been very civil. Compared, hell. It's just been civil.

I've gotten some very different ideas about what I think the inside of our favorite ship looks like just from this thread alone.
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Old August 24 2011, 10:36 PM   #459
Science Officer
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

This is a really interesting thread. All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not doing interiors! There are a few things on the exterior of the refit which don't make sense, but I'm trying not to think about them. I've already run out of nails to bite.
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Old August 25 2011, 12:56 AM   #460
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Hey guys - it's all good. I want to echo what Tallguy wrote and want to say and thank you all for being very civil. I'm very open to ideas that even though they might not end up in the on-screen version, would certainly think would be cool to one day to see in another 1701 thread being built out (or already built)

@Science Officer - I've been watching your thread and you have quite a super detailed build out of the movie 1701 and I'm looking forward to seeing it all textured out!

@aridas sofia - thank you for the kind words!

@humor - I was kinda thinking of that Star Trek instrumental where Kirk gets an inspirational moment. Now I'm going to go try and find it on youtube...
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Old August 25 2011, 12:56 AM   #461
Cary L. Brown
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
You see, this is why I don't post much here anymore. I was trying to make a point civilly to someone I respect and have worked with, and you guys try to make it into a pissing contest. Everything doesn't have to be a pissing contest, you know. Cary and I understand where each of us are coming from just fine, and we respect each other's positions. I thought the OP might benefit from hearing other POVs. If we can't discuss this shit without all the kids gathering around in a circle and yelling, "fight! fight!" then this really isn't a forum. It's a joke.
Absolutely true...

I've been noticing this becoming more and more of an issue on the 'net over the past couple of years. There's a real sense that DISCUSSION isn't permissible, and that "conflicts of ideas" are just plain wrong.

Of course, that's the one idea that someone can toss out that I WILL fight tooth-and-nail over.

I love Aridas' work, and have been following what he's done for most of my adult life. I consider much of what he's done to be among the best Star Trek work put out. But that doesn't mean that we have to be in 100% agreement about every possible element of every possible topic.

In real life, if two different positions are out there, the best thing to do is to toss those ideas into the "arena" and let the ideas... NOT THE PERSONS PROMOTING THEM... "fight it out." Realistically, most times neither position is 100% accurate, and what comes out of the discussion is a conclusion which incorporates elements of both, but which is closer to the TRUTH than either was originally.

A fair, honest, and yes, dispassionate, argument about a disputed point is one of the best learning techniques in existence.

That's why I cringe when I see supposed "scientists" making points about how some disputed scientific concept is "settled" by "consensus." That's about as anti-science as any position could ever be... because actual science includes many characteristics, but foremost among them is that EVERYTHING CAN AND MUST BE OPEN TO CHALLENGE AND QUESTIONING.

The concept of "forced consensus" by silencing opposing voices has been promoted in a variety of realms, and it's becoming more and more common these days. There are those here, and on other related boards, who actively try to silence ANYONE who dares question the "consensus" on any given point... whether it be a matter of politics, of social discussion, of engineering techniques, of model-building techniques, or just conversation about a series of TV shows and/or movies. "Agree with the 'in-crowd' or be silenced!" is becoming more and more common online... in a realm, the 'net, which used to be the single most free medium for unfettered personal expression.

Let's be clear... I consider Aridas a friend, and there was not even the tiniest hint of disrespect, shown from him to me, or from me towards him, in this interchange.

I'm disturbed that anyone would try to infer otherwise, even if some of those comments were clearly "tongue-in-cheek."

We were discussing, and that's all. This is a FORUM... which, by definition, is a "location set aside for the free exchange of information and ideas," now, isn't it?

Now... back to your regularly scheduled discussion.
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Old August 26 2011, 08:20 AM   #462
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

A followup on the Reliant. So matching the bridge tops up it would seem that the Reliant could be about 6% less wide than the Enterprise. After re-scaling my model, now the Reliant's volume comes in at about 210,000 m3. What's interesting, when scaled smaller, the phaser mounts and decals are much closer to the same size between the two ships...

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Old August 26 2011, 02:11 PM   #463
Redfern
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
...this is why I don't post much here anymore...It's a joke.
That's why I included a winking smilie, because I was making a joke.

How about this, anyone who genuinely feels my quip was inappropriate, I invite you to this thread...

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=34999

...and call me anything from "sick furry" to "perverted skunk f***er " without concern of reprisal. Ptrope? Please, note; I am granting formal permission to any offended members to openly insult me without fear they will be banned or given official warnings.

I hope this will be adequate restitution.

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old August 26 2011, 04:11 PM   #464
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

For what my tuppence is worth, I didn't think there was any malice intended by anyone - it was a civilised discussion (at last! Why can't all threads be like this?) followed by a humorous quip.
But I can certainly empathise with the misinterpretation - there's too much ill feeling in Trekbbs-land a lot of the time

Fascinating discussion though from different approaches to mapping the Enterprise, a real testament to IDIC.
And Blssdwlf- lovin' the latest revelations about the Reliant!
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Old August 26 2011, 08:04 PM   #465
Science Officer
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
A followup on the Reliant. So matching the bridge tops up it would seem that the Reliant could be about 6% less wide than the Enterprise. After re-scaling my model, now the Reliant's volume comes in at about 210,000 m3. What's interesting, when scaled smaller, the phaser mounts and decals are much closer to the same size between the two ships...

Out of curiosity, what happens to the scaling if you work from a side profile accounting for the two decks of the saucer?

Cheers,
S.O.
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