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Old August 9 2011, 12:46 AM   #61
ChristopherPike
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Actually if the act of an object exiting the Black Hole/Lightning Storm/whatever creates a branching universe each time, then it happened twice in Star Trek 2009 didn't it?

When Nero arrived in 2233. An identical universe to the Prime one was created and continued to be the same, until he interacted with the U.S.S. Kelvin, causing the premature birth of James T. Kirk, who would've been born on Earth had it survived and got back there.

Old Spock arriving in 2258, duplicates the universe again. A universe containing all the events up until that point, all the damage Nero did before - who has since escaped imprisonment and is sitting around patiently to intercept Spock. Similar situation, nothing differentiates it until Nero sees and captures Spock.

So it's perhaps not a question of time-travel to save Vulcan. BUT universe and time-travel back to the first branch, where Nero is presumably waiting for a Spock who's not coming. Did that extra time spent waiting mean Nero changed his plan? How long was his patience? He wanted to take out Vulcan while Spock watched. Probably even worse for the Federation in that first branch off the universe. After it became clear, he wasn't going to show up, the Narada heads straight to Earth first instead...

It's that multiverse theory of both outcomes happening and continuing to move forward, in this case - whether Old Spock exited or not. As well as 25 years before that - the first deviation, whether Nero exited or not.
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Old August 9 2011, 06:59 AM   #62
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Dennis wrote: View Post
Python Trek wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post

The time travel philosophy in that movie was starkly different from the usual reset-button routine established by the TV series.
But no one TRIED to undo the damage. No one gave a fuck. That's what I was talking about, not some "reset button'.
Have you tried to undo the damage to the World Trade Towers?

Why not?
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Old August 9 2011, 11:30 AM   #63
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

I'm just waiting on that flux capacitor I won on eBay and then I'll be all over it.

Of course, whatever I do... it's more likely nobody would believe me. And my knowledge of what is about to happen, would simply result in one more inmate in Guantanamo Bay, than there was before. That's one outcome. Another, is being summarily executed by some shadowy bunch of Government agents, who've faked evidence that I went to school with Osama Bin Laden or somehow orchestrated the attacks myself.

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Old August 9 2011, 11:46 AM   #64
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

ChristopherPike wrote: View Post
Actually if the act of an object exiting the Black Hole/Lightning Storm/whatever creates a branching universe each time, then it happened twice in Star Trek 2009 didn't it?

When Nero arrived in 2233. An identical universe to the Prime one was created and continued to be the same, until he interacted with the U.S.S. Kelvin, causing the premature birth of James T. Kirk, who would've been born on Earth had it survived and got back there.

Old Spock arriving in 2258, duplicates the universe again. A universe containing all the events up until that point, all the damage Nero did before - who has since escaped imprisonment and is sitting around patiently to intercept Spock. Similar situation, nothing differentiates it until Nero sees and captures Spock.

So it's perhaps not a question of time-travel to save Vulcan. BUT universe and time-travel back to the first branch, where Nero is presumably waiting for a Spock who's not coming. Did that extra time spent waiting mean Nero changed his plan? How long was his patience? He wanted to take out Vulcan while Spock watched. Probably even worse for the Federation in that first branch off the universe. After it became clear, he wasn't going to show up, the Narada heads straight to Earth first instead...

It's that multiverse theory of both outcomes happening and continuing to move forward, in this case - whether Old Spock exited or not. As well as 25 years before that - the first deviation, whether Nero exited or not.
I don't view the universe as 'duplicating'. The time travel event simply means that the universe into which Nero has travelled which would otherwise have been identical to the Prime Universe diverges at that point. Spock's presence has a similar effect, causing a second divergence from what the universe would have been if Spock had never arrived. Nothing is duplicating, the viewer is just watching different circumstances play out. It only appears that things have changed to Nero and Spock. To the residents of this particular universe, they are playing out exactly as they should.

If Nu Spock wants to jump to a different universe where his friends and family survive, he can try, but his motives will be purely selfish.

I am very aware that this makes Voyager's finale appear illogical. It was. Who ever said Granny Janeway was logical?
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Old August 9 2011, 11:58 AM   #65
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Sorry, yes. Duplicating. Just easier to simplify it that way in my head. Supposedly all the universes exist running alongside each other. Or they would, if it were the naturally occurring quantum theory where an individual chooses whether to lie in this morning, or get up early. Both outcomes happening with a past/present/future. But what is specific with Nero and Spock is the artificial method of doing that. That's probably the key to detecting a way of backtracking to the earlier branch. The one where there's an extra time window of waiting and Vulcan might suddenly have become the second target on Nero's list - with no Old Spock to show it to. He'd have to go to Earth first, grab nuSpock and do it all in reverse order.
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Old August 9 2011, 12:13 PM   #66
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
If Nu Spock wants to jump to a different universe where his friends and family survive, he can try, but his motives will be purely selfish.
Hmmm. Maybe it couldn't be Spock wanting that then. He's too young, logical and has more motivation to move on. Sarek maybe? Or just some other character affected by Galactic socio-political fall-out from the two big catatrophes in the film, and they become obsessed with investigating the circumstances surrounding the link between those focal or tipping points in their history.

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Old August 9 2011, 03:14 PM   #67
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Python Trek wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
Python Trek wrote: View Post

But no one TRIED to undo the damage. No one gave a fuck. That's what I was talking about, not some "reset button'.
Have you tried to undo the damage to the World Trade Towers?

Why not?
It's not that complicated a question.

In terms of the Star Trek movie, making "resetting time" a story option just cheapens the drama. I hope never to see that in Trek again - a forlorn hope, I'm sure - but I applaud the writers for at least ignoring it in this case.
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Old August 9 2011, 03:36 PM   #68
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Plus a reset would wipe out a ton of potential stories that could never be told in the Prime universe. No sane writer is going to hamstring themselves in that way.
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Old August 9 2011, 08:07 PM   #69
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

It totally depends on what CBS wants to do with Star Trek. It may be their position that any TV series--live or animated--while the movies are running could dillute the brand just as it's back on its feet.
I don't think CBS gives a flying flip about properly managing the Star Trek brand. It's too far off-strategy for CBS, Showtime or the CW. They'll either continue to ignore it, or use it opportunistically.

An animated series isn't the best idea for Star Trek, brand-wise. It'll give the impression that "Star Trek is for kids" (even if the animated series is pitched to kids and adults equally). But is CBS going to do the "right" thing instead - a live actions series either on Showtime or sold off to a decent basic cable network? Unlikely.

Setting brand-management issues aside, an animated series sold to the Cartoon Network is likely to be a financial success. So it's an opportunistic thing that CBS might jump on, if they are convinced by Kurtzman and Orci 's pitch. It's a scenario for getting Star Trek back on TV that's a lot more plausible than anything I've seen since ENT went off the air. It doesn't require that CBS particularly care about the franchise, it just requires that they recognize an easy way to make money.

I'm less inclined to believe such a project will be Star Trek XI: The Animated Series and more like something that will stand on its own in the way Transformers: Prime kind of does with tweaked character and mechanical designs for animation. We could wind up with a brown-haired and gold-shirted Kirk that looks like neither Chris Pine or a young William Shatner and an even more tricked-out Enterprise, IMO.
Piggybacking on the movie success would be a prime reason for CBS to consider the show easy money. To develop new characters for a franchise that's lain fallow where kids are concerned is far more of a stretch. Some kids have seen Trek XI; everything else is ancient history.

They might go the route that Lucasfilm has taken for young Obi-Wan and create an animated Kirk that is a melding of Shatner and Pine. That would be interesting to see.

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Old August 9 2011, 10:52 PM   #70
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
It totally depends on what CBS wants to do with Star Trek. It may be their position that any TV series--live or animated--while the movies are running could dillute the brand just as it's back on its feet.
I don't think CBS gives a flying flip about properly managing the Star Trek brand. It's too far off-strategy for CBS, Showtime or the CW. They'll either continue to ignore it, or use it opportunistically.
I disagree. Star Trek is still one of the bigger properties that CBS owns. I very much doubt that it's something they've forgotten or don't care about--just not something they're in a hurry to bring back to television. Heck, they're still hawking the existing Trek TV shows in worldwide syndication as we speak.
An animated series isn't the best idea for Star Trek, brand-wise. It'll give the impression that "Star Trek is for kids" (even if the animated series is pitched to kids and adults equally).
I think an animated Trek series would be about creating a brand for kids, because right now that's a lucrative market that Trek hasn't been able to successfully reach in years (if not decades). There'll still be the movies and whatever for "old folks," but a series for kids could go a long way towards making Trek a diverse and far-reaching brand like the various superhero franchises.
But is CBS going to do the "right" thing instead - a live actions series either on Showtime or sold off to a decent basic cable network? Unlikely.
What you, me, or anyone else might consider the "right" thing to do really has no bearing on what CBS wants to do with it. They're going to do what's they think is right, even if it means no TV series or one coming out next year.
Setting brand-management issues aside, an animated series sold to the Cartoon Network is likely to be a financial success. So it's an opportunistic thing that CBS might jump on, if they are convinced by Kurtzman and Orci 's pitch. It's a scenario for getting Star Trek back on TV that's a lot more plausible than anything I've seen since ENT went off the air. It doesn't require that CBS particularly care about the franchise, it just requires that they recognize an easy way to make money.
And any refusal to do so implies either a conscious unwillingness to do so or that they feel the time isn't right.
I'm less inclined to believe such a project will be Star Trek XI: The Animated Series and more like something that will stand on its own in the way Transformers: Prime kind of does with tweaked character and mechanical designs for animation. We could wind up with a brown-haired and gold-shirted Kirk that looks like neither Chris Pine or a young William Shatner and an even more tricked-out Enterprise, IMO.
Piggybacking on the movie success would be a prime reason for CBS to consider the show easy money.
Which could be done without simply copying the movie frame by frame. It's really more of a rare thing for a cartoon based off a movie or TV series to share the exact same continuity. TAS and The Clone Wars are rather the exceptions than the norm in that regard. And even those few tie-in cartoons that do follow some kind of previous continuity--like the old Ghostbusters cartoon--usually have some sort of character redesign during the translation to animation.
To develop new characters for a franchise that's lain fallow where kids are concerned is far more of a stretch. Some kids have seen Trek XI; everything else is ancient history.
Who said anything about developing new characters? I think a new animated Trek series will be another take on Kirk and the gang aimed at kids myself.
They might go the route that Lucasfilm has taken for young Obi-Wan and create an animated Kirk that is a melding of Shatner and Pine. That would be interesting to see.
There are a number of different routes that can be taken as far as character designs go, IMO.
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Old August 10 2011, 12:11 AM   #71
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

I haven't seen any indications that CBS is "managing" the Star Trek brand, as opposed to opportunistically exploiting it, when it represents easy money. They're in the TV biz and if they don't see it as a big TV brand, then I can hardly blame them. There's been little recent proof it is a big TV brand. CSI and American Idol are big TV brands.

I think a new animated Trek series will be another take on Kirk and the gang aimed at kids myself.
We've only seen two hours worth of new Kirk et al, so there's no substantial canon for any new series to contradict. How would we know if it's "another take" or just a continuation of what has already been established? And if the movie writers are doing the TV series, why would they go to the trouble of actively contradicting their own canon? The only plausible way this series would happen is if Kurtzman and Orci are pushing it.

The Clone Wars has shown the value of targetting kid and adult fanbases, and Star Trek certainly skews more adult than Star Wars, since Star Trek hasn't had anything near the efforts to cultivate the kid market compared with Lucasfilm.
I think an animated Trek series would be about creating a brand for kids
Which would require Kurtzman and Orci not only to convince CBS to care about Star Trek, but to care enough to develop a show that is even more outside their existing strategy. Kids shows don't fit in with CBS, Showtime or the CW. If CBS doesn't care about doing a space opera series, why should they change their minds if it's a space opera series for kids?

CBS does cop shows on CBS; HBO-type shows on Showtime; and teen angst shows on the CW. Neither space opera nor kids shows fit in anywhere. This is shaping up to be one bear of a pitch meeting.

Waiting for the time to be right for CBS to get interested in these things is futile. Companies change their strategy when their existing strategy isn't working, and they have a gun to their head. But CBS is doing just fine without space operas or kid shows. They're not going to fix something that isn't broken.

I think the one and only hope Star Trek has to get back on TV is for someone with a lot of credibility like Kurtzman and Orci to make a strong case for it, regardless of the serious institutional barriers they are bound to face. This deal will have to be done, if it gets done, on the basis of personal connections because there's no rational business reason for it to happen.
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Old August 10 2011, 04:39 AM   #72
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
I haven't seen any indications that CBS is "managing" the Star Trek brand, as opposed to opportunistically exploiting it, when it represents easy money.
Actually, the fact that CBS isn't "opportunistically exploiting" it is a form of management, even if you think it isn't. As far as easy money, it can't get any easier than profit with little or zero investment. CBS seems quite content to license Trek to others (such as Paramount) and get their cut from them.
They're in the TV biz and if they don't see it as a big TV brand, then I can hardly blame them. There's been little recent proof it is a big TV brand. CSI and American Idol are big TV brands.
Well aside from CBS not owning American Idol, no one ever said that Trek was the biggest TV brand of all time. It was never that even during its height of popularity.
I think a new animated Trek series will be another take on Kirk and the gang aimed at kids myself.
We've only seen two hours worth of new Kirk et al, so there's no substantial canon for any new series to contradict. How would we know if it's "another take" or just a continuation of what has already been established?
How do you know that it will be a continuation of those "two hours worth of new Kirk et al?" The current Transformers: Prime series that Orci and Kurtzman co-developed isn't a direct continuation of the Transformers movies they worked on. It borrowed a lot from the movies, but it can hardly be considered in the same continuity with them. Like so many other tie-in cartoons, they capitalize more on the name and basic concepts rather than all the particulars.
And if the movie writers are doing the TV series, why would they go to the trouble of actively contradicting their own canon? The only plausible way this series would happen is if Kurtzman and Orci are pushing it.
That's what Orci and Kurtzman did with Transformers: Prime.
The Clone Wars has shown the value of targetting kid and adult fanbases, and Star Trek certainly skews more adult than Star Wars, since Star Trek hasn't had anything near the efforts to cultivate the kid market compared with Lucasfilm.
Exactly, it's essentially an untapped market for Trek.
I think an animated Trek series would be about creating a brand for kids
Which would require Kurtzman and Orci not only to convince CBS to care about Star Trek, but to care enough to develop a show that is even more outside their existing strategy. Kids shows don't fit in with CBS, Showtime or the CW. If CBS doesn't care about doing a space opera series, why should they change their minds if it's a space opera series for kids?

CBS does cop shows on CBS; HBO-type shows on Showtime; and teen angst shows on the CW. Neither space opera nor kids shows fit in anywhere. This is shaping up to be one bear of a pitch meeting.
Not necessarily if it's a pitch that CBS likes. Also, don't forget that the CW does air action cartoons on Saturday mornings. But a new Trek cartoon could also wind up on Cartoon Network, Disney XD, the Hub, Nicktoons, or even the Hub.
Waiting for the time to be right for CBS to get interested in these things is futile. Companies change their strategy when their existing strategy isn't working, and they have a gun to their head. But CBS is doing just fine without space operas or kid shows. They're not going to fix something that isn't broken.
Which goes back to how CBS is currently managing Trek. There's no urgent need for them to do anything with Trek on the TV front right now.
I think the one and only hope Star Trek has to get back on TV is for someone with a lot of credibility like Kurtzman and Orci to make a strong case for it, regardless of the serious institutional barriers they are bound to face. This deal will have to be done, if it gets done, on the basis of personal connections because there's no rational business reason for it to happen.
By your reasoning, there will never be a need for another Trek series again, live or animated.
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Old August 10 2011, 11:03 AM   #73
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

In the meantime and requiring not much effort at all...

I'd like to see an experiment done where CBS rebrands Star Trek Enterprise, to discover how many viewers that can get on one of its main flagships channels. You know, in Prime-time or close to - at an hour unprecidented for a 10 year old property.

13 of the best episodes, mostly from Season 4 (I would expect) although a handful of earlier ones too. North Star has a "Cowboys and Aliens" vibe. Broken Bow still one of the best Star Trek pilots. Regeneration with the Borg in it is underrated.

Completely new opening title sequence, losing the middle of the road pop song - to give it a fighting chance. So even Simon Pegg wouldn't dare turn over.

Outlay to CBS? Basically nothing. How many people had HD back when it was on the air BUT do now?

Star Trek Enterprise lands on its 10th Anniversary this September.

Somekind of initiative for a new generation of kids to it another shot. Watching online is nice, but it doesn't get its pasty face out of the basement and into the sun where it belongs.

There are enough stories in the last Star Trek series to assemble a line-up that doesn't outstay its welcome.

Test what reception a show would get on TV now-a-days for crying out loud...
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Old August 10 2011, 01:26 PM   #74
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Live action sci fi series are expensive to make and a lot of decent shows have been cut down in their prime because, while popular, they just weren't popular enough to justify the expense. Others have re-adjusted their focus to try and cut costs and/or increase audience share, usually to the detriment of the quality of the show (even TOS suffered this fate let's not forget).

We must also remember that the stars of many of the NuTrek actors are ascending. Some of them may not want to be involved in the franchise way into the future if they being offered a lot of other work. If Pine or Quinto bowed out would they kill them off, re-cast again, do a hard reboot, or do a spin-off? The new movie franchise could easily stall after 3 movies.

It's at this point that I would expect a cartoon franchise featuring the same characters to be developed more seriously. There would be no movie canon to contradict for starters.

I'd love to see a tv movie or mini series test the water. Maybe a five-parter featuring an ongoing story like Torchwood: Children of Earth would be cool.
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Old August 10 2011, 01:35 PM   #75
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think an animated Trek series would be about creating a brand for kids, because right now that's a lucrative market that Trek hasn't been able to successfully reach in years (if not decades).
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Star Trek certainly skews more adult than Star Wars
Ah yes the dilemma...

unfortunately for linear broadcast or cable TV animated = children's programming. Or at least TVPG rating and not TV-14.

In 3 other threads about the TV ratings and violence in 3 Trek TV series I brought up how the parental guideline ratings were for Trek TV series during the time of broadcast and syndication runs since the start of 1997 in the USA. Would the on-screen violence along with content all be dumbed down for TV-PG or TV-G all the time?
I think a TV-14 rating would be most appropriate aim for the next animated or live-action Star Trek TV series.
With a skewing audience over the age of 35 yes.

This is one other reason why this thread:
Would it really matter if the next Trek series were on linear TV?
seems to be appropriate in the United States with CBS-owned channels. Of course we know Trek will sell to some International markets.
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