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Old August 5 2011, 08:36 PM   #46
Anwar
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

sonak wrote: View Post
Nice try, but when we see the PD invoked in modern Trek, it's invoked for ideological reasons, out of a belief in non-inteference, NOT out of a fear of the logistical difficulties that interference would bring.
Which doesn't mean those difficulties don't exist. Big picture here, folks.

Besides, don't forget that cultures they help are also potential new allies, just like in the real world, when countries that get humanitarian aid from another country tend to view that country more favorably. Even from a realpolitik standpoint it makes sense.
If they're advanced enough to be of any real help as allies, then they can ask the Federation for assistance and it is no longer a PD issue since there was a formal request for aid.

If not, pardon me but I don't think pre-industrial (or even post-industrial) civilizations are going to be much aid against the Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians/Borg/Dominion for a few decades (and this is IF the Feds decide to just hand over technology by the bucketloads).
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Old August 5 2011, 09:20 PM   #47
sonak
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Anwar wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Nice try, but when we see the PD invoked in modern Trek, it's invoked for ideological reasons, out of a belief in non-inteference, NOT out of a fear of the logistical difficulties that interference would bring.
Which doesn't mean those difficulties don't exist. Big picture here, folks.

Besides, don't forget that cultures they help are also potential new allies, just like in the real world, when countries that get humanitarian aid from another country tend to view that country more favorably. Even from a realpolitik standpoint it makes sense.
If they're advanced enough to be of any real help as allies, then they can ask the Federation for assistance and it is no longer a PD issue since there was a formal request for aid.

If not, pardon me but I don't think pre-industrial (or even post-industrial) civilizations are going to be much aid against the Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians/Borg/Dominion for a few decades (and this is IF the Feds decide to just hand over technology by the bucketloads).


ah, so your position is that if a civilization hasn't reached an arbitrary point of technological advancement by the time a disaster strikes, too bad for them, huh?
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Old August 5 2011, 10:05 PM   #48
Anwar
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

If it was their own civilization mismanagement that led to their inability to defend themselves from things all civilizations suffer from (natural disasters, wars)...well, it's their own fault really. And if they're lucky enough to not be wiped out by said things, they'll learn from it.
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Old August 6 2011, 01:25 AM   #49
Nightdiamond
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

I do see some hypocrisy in certain areas;

When other cultures, like the Bajorans are being conquered, the Federation because of the PD, will willfully ignore it.

When the Federation's existence is threatened, they will ask, even beg for help from other powers.

If they don't get it, they get angry and resort to desperate measures.

Billions of Federation citizens are living in luxury because Starfleet secretly tricked the Romulans into war.

Maybe things like that are unavoidable in order to perserve paradise.

Maybe this a backlash against TNG's preachiness- at that time, it was 'how different we are from those savage 20th century people'

Then DS9 and Voyager and even Enterprise pretty much challenged that idea.....
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Old August 6 2011, 02:46 AM   #50
Temis the Vorta
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Not all corruption involves money. It can also involve morally bankrupt decision-making.
The Federation doesn't make morally bankrupt decisions on a regular basis. Only when bad movies are involved.

cwl wrote: View Post
the Klingons and Romulans team up they can split the Federation down the middle!
You gotta be kidding. An alliance of cats and dogs, that'll last.
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Old August 6 2011, 03:24 AM   #51
Anwar
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

The Bajorans were not conquered, they were formally annexed by the Cardassians. That means that the Bajoran government at the time signed an agreement where they willingly became a territory of the Cardassian Union. It was all legal, which is why the Feds didn't get involved: all they had to go on for the "Cardassians conquered us!" stuff were a bunch of rebels who were never part of the Bajoran government in the first place.
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Old August 6 2011, 03:47 AM   #52
scotpens
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Actually, it's spelled H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y.

Sorry to point that out--I just had to.
Well in my defense, my first stab was H-Y-P-O-C-R-A-C-Y.
If that were a real word, it would mean “government by the lowest.”
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Old August 6 2011, 04:37 AM   #53
sonak
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Anwar wrote: View Post
The Bajorans were not conquered, they were formally annexed by the Cardassians. That means that the Bajoran government at the time signed an agreement where they willingly became a territory of the Cardassian Union. It was all legal, which is why the Feds didn't get involved: all they had to go on for the "Cardassians conquered us!" stuff were a bunch of rebels who were never part of the Bajoran government in the first place.

er, annexations aren't necessarily voluntary on the part of those annexed, whether there's a treaty or not. Are you really defending the legality of an action based on whether there's a treaty? That sounds like Palpatine in Star Wars: Phantom Menace, who's obsessed with getting a treaty signed to "legitimize" an occupation. An agreement signed under duress isn't a legal agreement.
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Old August 6 2011, 04:46 AM   #54
Anwar
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

No, I'm saying that the Cardassians probably forced whoever the Bajoran Government was at the time into formalizing the annexation (disruptor to the head negotiation) so it would all be legal under whatever standard Galactic Law is in those circumstances to prevent outsiders from intervening.

And there would be no proof that it was under duress except from those whom would be written off as terrorists, knowing how the Cardassians are with puppet governing.

So the Feds couldn't just go in and say they conquered them without violating Galactic law, since Bajor was legally signed over to Cardassia.

There's some other realpolitik at hand here too, since the Romulans and Klingons also have enslaved worlds in less legally binding manners and the liberation of Bajor would make them nervous about the Feds future intentions towards THEIR conquests which had less legitimacy.
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Old August 6 2011, 04:52 AM   #55
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

And that right there is a very disturbing thing: that the Federation counts conquerors like the Klingons as its allies. That to me proves that the Federation, for all its ideals, is almost as pragmatic in practice as the Cardassian Union.
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Old August 6 2011, 04:57 AM   #56
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

I don't need to take off my shoes to count galactic powers as benign as the Federation.

It's not quite WH40K, but playing nice 24/7 will get you nowhere fast. It's probably easier when you have at least somebody watching your back. It's incredible that the Federation wasn't crushed immediately upon its conception, considering the neighbourhood.
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Old August 6 2011, 05:00 AM   #57
sonak
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Anwar wrote: View Post
No, I'm saying that the Cardassians probably forced whoever the Bajoran Government was at the time into formalizing the annexation (disruptor to the head negotiation) so it would all be legal under whatever standard Galactic Law is in those circumstances to prevent outsiders from intervening.

And there would be no proof that it was under duress except from those whom would be written off as terrorists, knowing how the Cardassians are with puppet governing.

So the Feds couldn't just go in and say they conquered them without violating Galactic law, since Bajor was legally signed over to Cardassia.

There's some other realpolitik at hand here too, since the Romulans and Klingons also have enslaved worlds in less legally binding manners and the liberation of Bajor would make them nervous about the Feds future intentions towards THEIR conquests which had less legitimacy.

Again, no Galactic Law worth anything would allow annexation by force just because there's a treaty. ANY conquered country has to sign a surrender which involves turning over territory to the conqueror, but that doesn't mean it's legal. You're saying if the UFP knew a Cardassian fleet had crossed into the Bajoran sector, started landing troops in the capital, etc. that they couldn't lift a finger once an annexation treaty was signed? That's ludicrous. That's an interpretation of the "law" which would clearly favor any aggressor.


Could you imagine if that were true? The Cardassians, Romulans, etc. would just be like "great, let's go conquering away, once we make the poor saps we've conquered sign something called a "treaty of annexation" the Federation can't interfere!"
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Old August 6 2011, 05:50 AM   #58
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

The Federation's morals ARE superior to most everyone else's, largely because most everyone else was introduced as a villain or antagonist. While it's far from perfect, I know of no better place to live...in reality, or in fiction.
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Old August 6 2011, 05:53 AM   #59
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

cwl wrote: View Post
RyuRoots wrote: View Post
What gets me is the insinuation that the Federation wanting others to join is SHOCKING AND CORRUPT AND TERRIBLE. ...it's a freaking alliance of worlds. The more members you have, the better the position of the Federation as a whole is, and it's mutually beneficial both for the whole (since that's another source of innovation, thinkers, resources, etc.) and for the world in question (more support, inclusion in beneficial treaties, etc.). I never understood why being nice to worlds in hopes of eventual membership is somehow underhanded and dastardly. Isn't that generally a good way generate interest in membership? By showing benefits and being a trustworthy ally?

And for that matter, when does the Federation EVER, in all of filmed canon Star Trek, PUSH ITSELF on other worlds? The only times we really see prospective worlds (that I can think of! feel free to correct me if I'm missing something) are in the TNG episode "First Contact" where THEY AGREE TO LEAVE FOREVER at the aliens' request, and with Bajor, who wanted the Federation to oversee the fallout from the occupation.
The Federation once described by the Klingons as a 'homo sapiens only club' is not an alliance of worlds but a Federation of worlds. Which implies some sort of top down rule. a lot of the smaller worlds could be seriously impacted by membership in a negative way by policies they dont agree with.
If by "the Klingons" you mean ONE Klingon who didn't trust the Federation partly due to years of hostility between them and her people, then SHE did describe them as such. And yeah, what an objective view of the Federation to take completely over what we've actually been shown of it.
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Old August 6 2011, 08:17 AM   #60
Nerroth
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

I think part of the issue is how relatively rarely we are shown other star-faring democratic societies in the Franchise in general, or ones comprised of several species in particular.


If you look at the Star Fleet Universe, the UFP in that setting is in the same neck of the galactic woods as at least two other democratic powers; the Gorn Confederation and the Inter-Stellar Concordium (both of which should be familiar to anyone who played the first two Starfleet Command PC games).

Of those, the ISC in particular is notable in also being a major power comprised of several member species; one which took a very different path to integration than the Feds did, but which helped shape the quite different political outlook it had in the modern era of the SFU.

There are other (at least partially-)democratic societies in other parts of the wider setting, such as the Mæsron Alliance over in the Omega Octant.

Plus, the UFP itself in that setting is noted to have a number of independent worlds within its trusteeship territory, but which retain their independence from the Federation (even when, in some cases, the worlds in question would easily qualify for membership, and whose governments are on good terms with the Feds).


In contrast, it's hard to stop and think of which other powers in the Franchise have such democratic credentials; the Alpha and Beta Quadrants are filled with less open (to others) societies, the known Gamma Quadrant is dominated by the Dominion, while the smattering of Delta Quadrant powers we are shown on-screen make for somewhat slim pickings (which may be part of the point; perhaps the Borg had already made a point of knocking off any would-be planetary unions in its rise to power, forcing the rest of the quadrant to try and make as little political noise as possible).

Even in the case of the Xindi, we only see them through the lens of the conflict with Earth and the manipulations of the Sphere Builders; perhaps they make a better go of being a stable multi-species union during peacetime? (Assuming they don't end up as yet another bunch of Federation members by the time the -J is in service, that is).


One day, it would indeed be interesting if the Franchise was able to take a look at a compelling counterpart to the Federation, in the sense of there being another multi-species democracy out there that would have its own set of ideas as to how to go about their business; but finding the right place for such a story to be told would be the real trick.
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