Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

[Anwar]

I'M not the one who thinks VOY ruined the Borg. I'M not the one who thought giving the Borg at least ONE rival ruined them. I'M not the one who thinks a story that makes the VOY crew incompetent spineless cowards would be a good thing worth watching.

[RyuRoots]

Anwar wrote:

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I'M not the one who thought giving the Borg at least ONE rival ruined them. I'M not the one who thinks a story that makes the VOY crew incompetent spineless cowards would be a good thing worth watching.

Sorry, but I have to disagree, since I have literally never seen anyone but you claim these things. So Anwar is the hatedome. It feels like we've solved a mystery.

[Anwar]

I had a discussion a while back with newtype_alpha where he criticized the existence of the 8472 aliens, so you have at least one contemporary to go to on that.

Luminus and even Guy Gardener said they wanted stories where VOY would have to abandon others to the Borg or fail to help them, so there you go again.

[RyuRoots]

Anwar wrote:

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I had a discussion a while back with newtype_alpha where he criticized the existence of the 8472 aliens, so you have at least one contemporary to go to on that.

Luminus and even Guy Gardener said they wanted stories where VOY would have to abandon others to the Borg or fail to help them, so there you go again.

You do realize that "having a no-win situation" doesn't mean "being incompetent spineless cowards", right? Not that I don't already know the answer. Frankly, unless newtype_alpha comes in and personally says "I hate 8472 for being a challenge to the Borg", I'd dismiss that, too, since there's nothing wrong with disliking an alien species. I never claimed that no one disliked 8472 for any reason.

And hell! Even if I acknowledge all three (and I don't), that would be three people for your alleged huge, extremely loud hatedom that doesn't exist.

[Anwar]

Show me an episode of TOS, TNG or DS9 where Kirk, Picard or Sisko run into a world under attack from some enemy and they just decide to leave them to their fates either because they were scared or because they didn't think they could do anything.

And yes, the crux of the matter with newtype_alpha WAS that they could fight the Borg.

I spoke about the 8472 aliens with guys on forums like rpg.net, at least there they were more open to the idea that Borg were only good for 2-3 stories and TNG already used them up beforehand so they didn't blame VOY for the decay.

[Saito S]

RyuRoots wrote:

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You do realize that "having a no-win situation" doesn't mean "being incompetent spineless cowards", right? Not that I don't already know the answer.

Ahh, but in order to address this fact, that one does not have to be an incompetent spineless coward to fail at times, one would be required to stray into the dreaded middle ground.

Anwar wrote:

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And yes, the crux of the matter with newtype_alpha WAS that they could fight the Borg.

I'm hesitant to just take your word for it, but here: suppose newtype does hate 8472 SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE they could trash the Borg. Even if that's true... so what? He's entitled to his opinion. No one is trying to assert that NO ONE EVER hated VOY or species 8472. That would be silly; for every show, and every aspect of a show like Trek, there is bound to be someone out there who loves it, and someone who hates it.

But newtype (assuming you are even characterizing his stance on 8472 correctly) isn't here! He isn't involved in this discussion! You cannot take something that ONE PERSON said, and ascribe that viewpoint to entire swaths of people.

Hmm...why does this feel so familiar...

Show me an episode of TOS, TNG or DS9 where Kirk, Picard or Sisko run into a world under attack from some enemy and they just decide to leave them to their fates either because they were scared or because they didn't think they could do anything.

Even if there aren't any, why does that mean VOY can't do it? And do you really think that if Picard and the Ent-D came across, say, 3 cubes trashing some poor sap's homeworld, they would be like "Ok! Arm all weapons, let's get em!"? They wouldn't be able to do much either.

And again with the extremes! The only two options in your world are "They win the day, 100%, everything is great, the bad guys are stopped!" or "They LOSE, because they SUCK, and they're SPINELESS COWARDS and EVERYONE DIED."

"Voyager doesn't stop the Borg or save the entire planet" does not have to mean "Voyager is completely ineffectual and ever last member of that species is assimilated." There are DOZENS of ways that a story along those lines could go (no I'm not going to list them all out, and no, failing to do so doesn't make me a hater).

RyuRoots wrote:

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And hell! Even if I acknowledge all three (and I don't), that would be three people for your alleged huge, extremely loud hatedom that doesn't exist.

Ah yes, the Hatedome! I hear it's being renovated!

[Anwar]

Saito S wrote:

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Ahh, but in order to address this fact, that one does not have to be an incompetent spineless coward to fail at times, one would be required to stray into the dreaded middle ground.

For such an epic fail of that magnitude, middle ground doesn't apply.

Hell, Luminus' own opinion is that there would no middle ground for Borg appearances: they'd always have to be some huge big event that kills tons of people.

Nevermind that in BOBW it was all nameless faceless extras killed of instead of the main cast.

Even if there aren't any, why does that mean VOY can't do it?

Because having these guys, who are incapable of doing anything epic on the "good" side of the spectrum due to them being totally on their own and without any significant friends or significant connections to any DQ aliens they meet, have only epic FAILURES, won't warm the audience up to them. Especially in comparison to their predecessors who CAN do epically heroic things to counterbalance whatever failures they endure.

"Sisko's off winning a war to save the known Trekverse, let's compete against that by having VOY try to stop the Borg from assimilating some helpless guy and fail really badly before they run off and leave said helpless guy to his fate."

And do you really think that if Picard and the Ent-D came across, say, 3 cubes trashing some poor sap's homeworld, they would be like "Ok! Arm all weapons, let's get em!"?

Well, yes.

And again with the extremes! The only two options in your world are "They win the day, 100%, everything is great, the bad guys are stopped!" or "They LOSE, because they SUCK, and they're SPINELESS COWARDS and EVERYONE DIED."

It's the Borg, "they don't do anything piecemeal" remember?

[zar]

[Guy Gardener]

If the wind was blowing just right, how could you resist peeing that?

[Luminus]

[Sigh] Every time I try to get out, they pull me back in. I could dismantle so many things you've said, Anwar, since I left. But I'll leave that to the people who are still debating with you. I will however, leave you with this tidbit in response to this:

Anwar wrote:

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Show me an episode of TOS, TNG or DS9 where Kirk, Picard or Sisko run into a world under attack from some enemy and they just decide to leave them to their fates either because they were scared or because they didn't think they could do anything.

When the Borg start assimilating the Enterprise E in First Contact, Picard and crew are escaping into a Jeffries tube. During this scene, a crewman yells out to Picard for help, as he is being assimilated. Picard moves closer to this crewman and shoots him dead with a phaser – something Lilly gives him hell over later on. 1 very clear example to answer your request.

[zar]

Who could forget this:

PICARD: "They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back."

Spineless cowards, right?


Another example:

DS9 - The Way of the Warrior: The Defiant comes across some wreckage, and they choose not to take the risk of dropping the cloak to scan for survivors. They leave them behind.


And I already know what your response will be, Anwar, so I'll write it for you: "Funny thing is, if they did that on VOY, everyone would complain."

[Anwar]

zar wrote:

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If they had actually gotten there in time, seen the Cube do this, and just sit there and watch?

Yes, yes they would be.

When the Borg start assimilating the Enterprise E in First Contact, Picard and crew are escaping into a Jeffries tube. During this scene, a crewman yells out to Picard for help, as he is being assimilated. Picard moves closer to this crewman and shoots him dead with a phaser – something Lilly gives him hell over later on

Mercy killing is better than nothing. If Picard had just turned around and run off without doing anything, then this would count.

PICARD: "They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back."

That quote made no sense, since we never saw or heard of any Borg attacks where the Feds fell back or ran off.

[zar]

Anwar wrote:

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That quote made no sense, since we never saw or heard of any Borg attacks where the Feds fell back or ran off.

Yes, we did hear of them:

PICARD: "They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back."

[Anwar]

When did that happen? There were no Borg attacks between BOBW and Descent, and no attacks between Descent and FC.

[zar]

So now you're saying Picard was lying?

You just don't know when to quit do you?