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Old August 3 2011, 04:45 AM   #226
exodus
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Luminus wrote: View Post

Then the producers are screw ups. That explains the problems, right there. It's why Spider-Man 3 was garbage. Moving along...
Those same producers helped re-introduce Trek to a whole new audience, gave us the second most popular and iconic series Treks since the TOS, the second highest grossing Trek film too date, allowed mass merchendising of Trek product, opened a themed resturant in Las Vegas and had successful careers before and after Trek but because of minor issues one single show, they're screw ups?


exodus wrote: View Post
Voyager eps. were meant to be repeated out of sequence and had shows aired out of production order during it's original airing. Voyager was meant to be stand alone eps. and never meant to be 100% consistent. Voyager like ENT from the start was meant to bring back the casual viewer that doesn't notice or care about inconsistency. There were inconsistency in TNG, the most popular one and the audience never caught them and/or didn't care.
Not doing the show any favors by revealing this bit of info. TNG didn't have as much glaring problems as Voyager. The biggest problem with Voyager is that the series should have been like "Year of Hell," considering that they were the only Federation ship in the Delta Quadrant. No such glaring problem existed on TNG. When the Ferengi first showed up, they were constantly jumping around and making noises and were about profit. The next time we saw them, there was no jumping around or stupid noises, but they were still all about profit, which is the core of who they are. If they had suddenly been about nobility, then TNG would have gotten blasted as well.

exodus wrote: View Post
I'm not getting this.
You tuned into a show you felt had weak writing thus contributing to the increased viewership of those eps., in turn giving the TPTB thr green light to do more of them........and it's the producers that screwed up?

You gave them the approval every time you tuned in.
I tuned into the show, during the end of the 3rd season. That's how I got into Trek in the first place. Scorpion was a great 2-part episode and I started watching the rest of Trek, because of it. But after that is where Borg portrayal went downhill. I kept watching because Jeri Ryan and Robert Picardo gave EXCELLENT performances.

If [you] base a show's worth on ratings alone, then [you] are a screw up. If that's the case, then Sanjaya is one of the greatest performers of all time.[/QUOTE]
Wasn't Sanjaya voted off when he started receiving fewer votes due to lower fan support?
No, they don't just base it on rating alone but it's been proven to be one of the most direct. Works for every other show on TV, why should Voyager be an exception?
What other way is there to get a better idea of what fans and casual viewers collectively are responding too? It's one of the only ways I know of to calculate the majority of the entire viewing audience.

If you to go by whats online;for everyone like you, there's another viewer like TheBorg, that enjoys the eps. Who's feedback do you consider?
What can I say, not every spin off can please every fan.
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Last edited by exodus; August 3 2011 at 05:08 AM.
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Old August 3 2011, 05:04 AM   #227
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

exodus wrote: View Post
for everyone like you, there's another viewer like TheBorg, that enjoys the eps. Who's feedback do you consider?
So if Luminus says it could be better, but TheBorg says it's fine, which do you consider? That's not much of a dilemma. TheBorg won't suddenly become dissatisfied if Luminus's points of contention are addressed. There's no either/or here. It's not as if we have one side saying Spock Must Die and the other saying Spock Must Live.
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Old August 3 2011, 05:26 AM   #228
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

edit: Never mind, the post I replied to just disappeared.
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Old August 3 2011, 05:46 AM   #229
exodus
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
for everyone like you, there's another viewer like TheBorg, that enjoys the eps. Who's feedback do you consider?
So if Luminus says it could be better, but TheBorg says it's fine, which do you consider? That's not much of a dilemma. TheBorg won't suddenly become dissatisfied if Luminus's points of contention are addressed. There's no either/or here. It's not as if we have one side saying Spock Must Die and the other saying Spock Must Live.
Never mind.
I can see with you, whatever is actually said you going twisted it around regardless.
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Old August 3 2011, 05:55 AM   #230
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Yet, if they were receiving feed back that the audience weren't happy with the direction of the Borg, why did they keep doing Borg episodes continuing to take them in that same direction??
I hate to break it to you, but that's exactly what happened.

You're assuming that they wouldn't have ignored the problem if they were aware of it, so they must not have been. In other words, your conclusion that they didn't screw up is based on your presupposition that they wouldn't have screwed up given the opportunity. That's circular reasoning.

Why do you keep deleting your posts?
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Old August 3 2011, 04:24 PM   #231
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
If the only thing that's good about an enemy is that they're "Mysterious" then that just highlights what a poorly thought out enemy they are.
I didn't say that was the only good thing about them. This was the first enemy that the Federation could not defeat by conventional means. It was one unique android that was able to stop the attacking Borg cube by a fluke. Without Data, it looked like Earth would have been easily assimilated.

True, the Borg have one boring mission: To assimilate everything. There's no reasoning with them. They are powerful, believe they are the most powerful, and arrogantly explore around the universe looking for civilizations to assimilate.

However, they are relentless. You destroy one cube and more come. We eventually discover they've got special conduits throughout the galaxy, allowing them to easily reach all four quadrants. It looks very much like an intent to dominate the whole galaxy. This makes for a formidable enemy.

In TNG, we see only one Borg cube invade Earth's solar system. Why not more? It could have been that this was an exploration vessel on its own. When it tracked the Enterprise after the first encounter initiated by "Q", it was exploring to see how weak the enemy was. Evaluate and then react as necessary. They were probably arrogant enough to believe they could do it all with one cube. And they were almost right... only proven wrong, because of Data.

We don't know how thinly spread out the Borg were in TNG, or what other engagements they had going. But clearly the destruction of the first cube wasn't the end of it. We learn later in "I, Borg" that they're still around. And ignoring the Borg faction that was inspired by Hugh, that was it. It wasn't until First Contact that we see the Borg making another incursion to Earth. As to why it wasn't a more aggressive force, well, they may have underestimated things yet again.

Voyager certainly took greater liberties with exploring the Borg. I think it was a great idea to bring them into the story line. I didn't like the idea of the Queen, but I understand the need to make it more "interesting", by having a tangible face. Still, she shouldn't have had such a human personality with emotions clearly on display. And I didn't like how Voyager was able to fend off Borg attacks as they did, given how easily other Federation ships of greater power were destroyed in TNG. True, once 7of9 was on board, Borg technology was used to help improve Voyager's capabilities and make for a greater defense. But this should have been exposed a bit better.

So I don't think Voyager weakened the Borg. Voyager made the Borg story idea much more extensive. And I like how species 8472 was brought in... it helped explain why the Borg weren't flooding the Alpha quadrant more extensively.
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Old August 3 2011, 04:48 PM   #232
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
The biggest problem with Voyager is that the series should have been like "Year of Hell," considering that they were the only Federation ship in the Delta Quadrant.
Look, I know some folks were expecting a show where the entire crew with no exceptions to completely fall to pieces within the first two episodes and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another. At least in their spare time while the rest of it would comprise of them all becoming vicious bloodthirsty space pirates who revel in being free of the Federation and go around ravaging, destroying and stealing everything from every sentient race encountered (especially the nice ones who welcome them) because that's "more true to life" and "better drama" than people who decide to overcome their differences and accept the aid others give them.

But it wasn't going to happen.
No, you're taking it to an extreme again.

What fans of Voyager wanted to see was consistency. This can be done while still creating episodes that can stand alone. I think the writers and producers were too fearful of taking chances.

Voyager was alone in the Delta quadrant. No resources. No starbases to dock with for repairs. And yet... we see Voyager take on serious damage time after time, only to see the next episode portray a "new" looking Voyager. No wear and tear. No appreciable signs of repairs done on the interior. It's what fans like to call "pressing the reset button." True, there were episodes where it was certainly acceptable, like "Year of Hell" parts I+II, because the end was a restart of the timeline. But I wanted to see more realism with Voyager. More interactions with other species for trading. Scars on the ship's hull that remained after an episode of terrific damage to the ship.

There would be a string of episodes where the crew is struggling with depleted resources and supplies. Later, they find a species where trading is possible. Voyager exchanges technology for hard goods. Or, gets a permit for mining on some planet for certain ore, but gets lucky and finds much more to help restock. Remember in an earlier episode where Voyager docks with some kind of robotic repair station? And then it turns out to be a trick to steal brains? Well, they could have had some legitimate repair stations like this at various points where Voyager would be able to receive real repairs. But we never see this... unfortunately. There were a few "scarce resources" episodes, but far too few and between.

Lack of this kind of realism put a big dampener on the believable. I think it could have been done without making big sacrifices. And I think it would have pulled in a bigger viewership.
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Old August 3 2011, 05:02 PM   #233
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I understand why they didn't do that very much: All the set designs and props and new models for space stations would've broken the budget. The reason they did those holosuite stories was because they were easily re-used props from TNG.

If they'd waited until DS9 was done, they'd be able to easily re-use DS9's props and sets for repair station/commerce hub stories and the CGI tech would also have been refined for cheaper easier usage as well.

It was a combo of rushing the show into production, and not hiring a new permanent writing staff from day one (for more consistency), as well as economic reasons, that made the less than it could've been. Not that I'm disappointed but I can at least understand WHY they did what they did.

As for the Borg, I'll just keep reiterating that they should've have a story where they get their hands on a Borg database (or Seven debriefs them) that lets them know that there are different types of Borg vessels with varying power levels and most of the time VOY runs into the smaller weaker Borg ships that are much easier to beat.

Did anyone complain that Jem'Hadar Bug Fighters got easier to beat over time? Did anyone complain that the Dominion had differing types of warships?

They shouldn't complain that a Borg Probe is much easier to beat than an Assimilation Cube, and most of the time VOY fights Probe ships.

And frankly, one of the only GOOD things about the Borg is that they could be used as a plot device to get enemies to unite together to fight them: Instead of focusing on the Borg as the primary, the Borg should be in the background and used as an excuse for VOY to build up a Delta Federation or something. Once they have cannon fodder to sacrifice to the Borg, the show won't get in any trouble for "weakening" the Borg because lots of nameless faceless extras are getting killed until they come up with some contrivance to kill the Borg.

TNG had the Borg kill tons of people and destroy at least two civilizations to build them up

DS9 Had the Dominion constantly killing people to build them up

VOY needed cannon fodder to build THEIR enemies up and to keep the Borg's threat level high. When it's only one ship in trouble and nothing else, you can't take that enemy as seriously as Trek's usual standards.

Last edited by Anwar; August 3 2011 at 05:18 PM.
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Old August 3 2011, 07:35 PM   #234
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
I understand why they didn't do that very much: All the set designs and props and new models for space stations would've broken the budget. The reason they did those holosuite stories was because they were easily re-used props from TNG.

If they'd waited until DS9 was done, they'd be able to easily re-use DS9's props and sets for repair station/commerce hub stories and the CGI tech would also have been refined for cheaper easier usage as well.

It was a combo of rushing the show into production, and not hiring a new permanent writing staff from day one (for more consistency), as well as economic reasons, that made the less than it could've been. Not that I'm disappointed but I can at least understand WHY they did what they did.
I think you're greatly overestimating costs. CGI isn't a typical resource. It's cheap, it doesn't need to be rationed, and it's easy to reuse. We DID see plenty of new CGI models. There's no reason some of them couldn't have been more repair stations etc.

And once you have a model, it can be easily re-animated. So if they damaged the Voyager in one episode, they could have easily taken the damaged CGI model and made flyby shots and so forth to replace the stock footage of the brand-new-looking Voyager.

The real reason was they were just too shy to try this type of continuity outside of two-parters and such. It was a missed opportunity.


Anwar wrote: View Post
As for the Borg, I'll just keep reiterating that they should've have a story where they get their hands on a Borg database (or Seven debriefs them) that lets them know that there are different types of Borg vessels with varying power levels and most of the time VOY runs into the smaller weaker Borg ships that are much easier to beat.
That's fine, but you can't really make this suggestion while simultaneously defending what they did do. That would have been a completely different story. As it was, they decided to have Voyager run into a new, beefed-up type of cube and then head straight into the very heart of Borg territory and meet the queen and all that. Those ideas can't coexist with the "we're just sneaking around their weaker defenses" idea.
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Old August 3 2011, 07:46 PM   #235
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Look, I know some folks were expecting a show where the entire crew with no exceptions to completely fall to pieces within the first two episodes and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another. At least in their spare time while the rest of it would comprise of them all becoming vicious bloodthirsty space pirates who revel in being free of the Federation and go around ravaging, destroying and stealing everything from every sentient race encountered (especially the nice ones who welcome them) because that's "more true to life" and "better drama" than people who decide to overcome their differences and accept the aid others give them.

But it wasn't going to happen.
Battlestar Galactica pulled it off to some degree. That show was pure excellence, up until the final episode.

exodus wrote: View Post
Those same producers helped re-introduce Trek to a whole new audience, gave us the second most popular and iconic series Treks since the TOS, the second highest grossing Trek film too date, allowed mass merchendising of Trek product, opened a themed resturant in Las Vegas and had successful careers before and after Trek but because of minor issues one single show, they're screw ups?
Yes. Present accomplishments do not erase past screw ups. Just ask the President's critics.

exodus wrote: View Post
No, they don't just base it on rating alone but it's been proven to be one of the most direct. Works for every other show on TV, why should Voyager be an exception?
What other way is there to get a better idea of what fans and casual viewers collectively are responding too? It's one of the only ways I know of to calculate the majority of the entire viewing audience.

If you to go by whats online;for everyone like you, there's another viewer like TheBorg, that enjoys the eps. Who's feedback do you consider?
What can I say, not every spin off can please every fan.
Reviews, that's how. Look at what people are actually saying, instead of only looking at how many digits those ratings are showing. The only thing that's been proven by ratings is that you can get more revenue from advertisers. I don't have a Nielsen box, so they're not including me. I don't know a single person with a Nielsen box. Do you? This "majority" that you speak of is a fantasy. In fact, in 2009 something like 20,000 out of 114,500,000 households actually had those boxes, so these producers are kidding themselves.
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Old August 3 2011, 08:05 PM   #236
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Battlestar Galactica fell apart after two seasons, and the only way they were able to get the show to work was:

1) Have the survival of the Colonials actually be meaningful. If they die their entire civilization is gone. Not so with one insignificant Federation starship with no importance to the Galaxy.

2) Have humanity be the ONLY life in the Universe. Only them and the Cylons, no other aliens. This would make NO sense in Trek.

3) The Colonials had a magic teleport machine that couldn't be tracked. If VOY had some magic device (like a cloak that even the Borg couldn't detect, or a teleport drive no one could detect) then they'd have an advantage the writers could use.

4) Cannon fodder, they had an armada with tens of thousands of nameless faceless extras to kill off without harming the Galactica or the main characters.

I think you're greatly overestimating costs. CGI isn't a typical resource. It's cheap, it doesn't need to be rationed, and it's easy to reuse. We DID see plenty of new CGI models. There's no reason some of them couldn't have been more repair stations etc.
CGI only got cheap halfway through the series, not from the start. They were still using physical models for seasons 1-3 (around there) and the CGI models they were able to use for Seasons 4-onwards were pretty expensive. Even DS9 didn't alter their CGI models. The Defiant was always in pristine condition throughout the show until it was destroyed and then they just got a brand new type of the same ship.

That's fine, but you can't really make this suggestion while simultaneously defending what they did do. That would have been a completely different story.
I'm suggesting they just assume the audience really are a bunch of morons who need to be spoonfed everything.
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Old August 3 2011, 08:17 PM   #237
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
They were still using physical models for seasons 1-3 (around there)
Did you forget the opening? There were three flybys of a physical-model Voyager in that. Absolutely everything else was CGI. Trek was using, and applying damage to, CGI models long before VOY season 4.


Anwar wrote: View Post
I'm suggesting they just assume the audience really are a bunch of morons who need to be spoonfed everything.
What.
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Old August 3 2011, 08:42 PM   #238
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Yes, they had CGI models of a perfectly intact Voyager (somewhat primitive ones, though). Having to constantly use cgi shots of said model in every episode, and then constantly have to keep changing said model because every single scratch of damage had to be maintained instead of being repaired would have negatively affected the budget.

What
I've given up on assuming that the audience can figure things out for themselves. You've made me realize that they DO need every last little thing spoonfed to them and can't figure things out for themselves. You've converted me to the "Viewers are Morons" mindset, congratulations.

For good measure, let's have them mention said developments every single episode. In fact, have it be repeated 5 times every episode as well for the entire series run. Wouldn't want to assume that the viewers have the ability to remember anything either. Oh no, they're far too pampered for that. Must make sure every single minute detail is fed to them and constantly reiterated, nothing less would suffice.

Kiss any mystery plots goodbye too, they're obviously not going to tolerate any of those. And make sure every last detail about every characters' backstory is explained at length when we first meet said characters and every single character tic is also shown off within seconds of introduction. And have every instance of said tics pointed out in the show rather than shown to the audience, wouldn't want it to fly over anyone's head.

Make sure no one every changes their hairstyle, wears different clothes, or decides to grow any facial hair or get scarred. Wouldn't want to confuse anybody as to who these "new characters" are. Make sure to include flashbacks to events 10 minutes past, just as an insurance policy. And always remember to mention Earth every episode, don't want the viewers to forget where the humans on the show came from originally. Make sure to show off Tuvok's ears whenever he's on-screen, we have to make sure the viewers don't forget he's not human.

Of course, there's also Chakotay, mentions must always be made to make it clear he's Native American, without that our good viewers might think the guy is white. And remember to reference Janeway's gender a couple of times per episode too, otherwise it'll be too easy for the viewers to think she was a man.
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Old August 3 2011, 09:08 PM   #239
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Well you can talk about how it negatively affects the budget all you want, but the fact is they already DID create damaged CGI models. Those models don't magically disappear and have to be recreated after every use. They still exist, and they can be easily re-animated. It's not like physical models that need to be strung up and filmed with a specifically mounted camera on tracks for every animation. They could have taken those CGI models and flown them around however they wanted.


Regarding the rest of your post... My God, I think you've finally gone off the deep end.
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Old August 3 2011, 09:25 PM   #240
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Well you can talk about how it negatively affects the budget all you want, but the fact is they already DID create damaged CGI models.
CGI models of an intact Voyager. There were only a few "damaged Voyager" CGI models made, because they were expensive and saved up for special episodes/two-parters, not enough money to constantly be using them every episode and further altering them all the time.

They still exist, and they can be easily re-animated.
Yes, NOW they can be used more liberally and altered more easily.

Regarding the rest of your post... My God, I think you've finally gone off the deep end
You've convinced me, from now on the audience gets spoonfed everything. No more respect for their intelligence OR attention spans. You've made it clear that it's a hopeless cause. If nothing was spelled out for them, they'd think Janeway was a man. Thank you for opening my eyes.
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