Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

[zar]

Anwar wrote:

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Guinan said that they swarmed through her home system, and One Cube is not a "Swarm". She also said they come "in force", again One Cube out of millions is not "In Force".

If it had been the Unicomplex itself coming to attack Earth, and they ended up destroying it THEN there'd be suitable wrap-up because they essentially took out the Borg Homeworld.

Unicomplex? What unicomplex? That concept wasn't invented until VOY. The cube could have been the equivalent. Guinan didn't say anything about cubes. The cube could have been the mothership which launched the swarms.

Guinan said "when they come, they'll come in force... they don't do anything piecemeal... when they left, none of my people were alive." The intro to BOBW is in line with this. They find a planet that the Borg attacked, everyone is dead. The admiral says "we've known this was coming for a year." It was quite obviously the sequel to Q Who and the conclusion of that arc.

And you still haven't responded to what I said about TDM. For some reason, you say the only "suitable wrap-up" would be the complete, unambiguous wiping out of the entire species, but this mysteriously isn't a requirement for any other similar stories. When has this ever happened with other powerful beings or technology? Whether there were more planet killers was still up in the air.

Anwar wrote:

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Because that's how Trek does things and divides Huge Empires. Story conceit and if VOY doesn't follow that it just infuriates the unpleasable audience even more.

Okay, you've lost me.

[antiquityscion]

I always thought the Borg, at least cosmetically, were inspired by the Cenobites of Hellraiser.



They look a lot alike, and then there is the cube factor, too!

[Anwar]

zar wrote:

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Unicomplex? What unicomplex? That concept wasn't invented until VOY. The cube could have been the equivalent. Guinan didn't say anything about cubes. The cube could have been the mothership which launched the swarms.

Right, one ship is supposed to represent their mobile homeworld. That's why we saw the "swarms" in BOBW, oh no wait we didn't! All we saw was one ship, out of millions.

It was quite obviously the sequel to Q Who and the conclusion of that arc.

This wasn't in line with what Guinan said. The One Cube was not part of a "swarm", no "swarms" were launched from that Cube in BOBW, the way she said the line in Q Who? implied that true Borg force was NOT one Cube yet that's all we saw. It's not a proper conclusion.

A proper conclusion would be finding the Borg guarding the Transwarp Conduit they used to get to Federation space and destroying it, sealing them back in the Delta Quadrant. Or finding out where Borg HQ is in the Alpha Quadrant and destroying it. Or that one Cube was its own Collective unto itself and the other Borg throughout the Galaxy know nothing of the Federation. Not just leaving it be after only ONE ship attacks them.

When has this ever happened with other powerful beings or technology? Whether there were more planet killers was still up in the air.

In ALL those cases, the superbeings/weapons encountered are always ancient things and one-shots with the implication being that they were just remnants of long-dead folk. The Borg were a still-existing force after BOBW.

]Okay, you've lost me.

TNG and DS9 follow the idea of all folks in the Trekverse having the same types of borders and space no matter where they are, the Fed in the Alpha Quadrant, the Dominion ruling the Gamma Quadrant. To follow this story conceit, the Borg rule the Delta Quadrant. If they DIDN'T do that, then the show just gets slammed AGAIN for not following other shows' rules.

[Saquist]

Anwar wrote:

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And now the Borg are "emasculated" because now the feds can out-run them.

That's extreme. One little speed advantage out of one ship designed for speed and now the Entire Collective is a bunch of wussies?

And the Borg are "emasculated" for letting the Feds damage them to the extent they could escape.

That's exactly what did in BOBW so there "emasculated" anyway.

And the show is over.

Only if you don't have any imgination beyond that point. It might be just the begin. Perhaps the worse thing that happened to Voyager was Trek Fans with no imagination, either that or writers with no imagination.

The Klingons are tied to the human race in terms of consequences and politics. There is NOTHING tying the VOY crew to anyone in the Delta Quadrant.

That's not what I suggested though.

They had to have gotten that ship from somewhere, and the Borg with Hugh had to have come from somewhere as well.

Somewhere implies an unknown factor.
We never saw that ship again. and even after Voyager showed us the Borg again in Scorpion they didn't show the Transwarp tech either.

Picard says in BOBW that for the Borg Cube to get from System J-25 to the Federation so soon, they must have superior power and propulsion.

Yeah, Q said as much that they will out last your reserves, no power limitations like Federation ships are known to have.

Imagine if DS9 made one Dominion Bug Fighter strong enough to blast past Starfleet and get to Earth.

What DS9 did was take ridiculous enemies and pitted them against valiant heroes. DS9 is stuipd. How many times did the Founders let intregal people survive when they could have killed them and have been done with it? How many times did they capture instead of destroy? Fans pay more attention to the Borg in Voyager but senselessly praise DS9 as though we were all watching 24 or something. DS9 did exactly the same as VOY because it all came from one persons...(the two that are one) Brannon and Berman. Pointing it out in Voyager's match ups against the Borg and then point to DS9 just makes DS9 look idiotic and Voyager Smarter than it is because at least Voyager kept the match up in the technology and not in the FLAGGING Common Sense of Changelings and Vorta.

[zar]

Anwar wrote:

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Right, one ship is supposed to represent their mobile homeworld.

First of all, the mobile homeworld was YOUR idea:

"If it had been the Unicomplex itself coming to attack Earth..."

And now you're ridiculing it? Make up your mind.

And why not? We didn't know how many Borg there were, and the cube was enormous. At least 28 cubic kilometers remember?

Anwar wrote:

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The One Cube was not part of a "swarm", no "swarms" were launched from that Cube in BOBW, the way she said the line in Q Who? implied that true Borg force was NOT one Cube yet that's all we saw. It's not a proper conclusion.

You're grasping at straws. She was describing what happened to her people a century ago. The foreshadowing line is merely "they'll be coming". And they came. Prophecy fulfilled. Any implication that there would be more coming was just as subtle as the similar implications in Doomsday Machine.

Anwar wrote:

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A proper conclusion would be finding the Borg guarding the Transwarp Conduit they used to get to Federation space and destroying it, sealing them back in the Delta Quadrant. Or finding out where Borg HQ is in the Alpha Quadrant and destroying it. Or that one Cube was its own Collective unto itself and the other Borg throughout the Galaxy know nothing of the Federation. Not just leaving it be after only ONE ship attacks them.

Okay, let's go down the list:

- They believed the planet killer came from another galaxy, but never found out how it got there and certainly did nothing to prevent more from coming.
- It was obviously a machine built by aliens, but they never found the HQ of those aliens.
- They never found out whether it was the only one.
- They just left it be after only ONE attacked them.

You give the planet killer and every other comparable threat a free pass but remain hellbent on criticizing TNG's Borg conclusion. It's almost as if you're... an unpleasable audience.

Anwar wrote:

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In ALL those cases, the superbeings/weapons encountered are always ancient things and one-shots with the implication being that they were just remnants of long-dead folk.

How can there be any implication about the creators if we have no idea where it came from? And supposing it is a leftover, how do we know it's the only one?

"In ALL those cases"? I thought you would have learned your lesson by now not to make such bold, absolute claims, because of how easy it is to be proven wrong. Which you are. Wrong, that is.

Planet killer:
Spock: "I can't help wondering if there are any more of those weapons wandering around the universe."

Crystalline Entity:
Not a long-dead remnant. It was alive, with no implication that it was the miraculous sole survivor of an extinct species. So the rest are still out there.

Kevin Uxbridge:
Picard: "We leave behind a being of extraordinary power..."

And so on.

Anwar wrote:

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TNG and DS9 follow the idea of all folks in the Trekverse having the same types of borders and space no matter where they are, the Fed in the Alpha Quadrant, the Dominion ruling the Gamma Quadrant. To follow this story conceit, the Borg rule the Delta Quadrant. If they DIDN'T do that, then the show just gets slammed AGAIN for not following other shows' rules.

What? There have been plenty of powerful races this doesn't apply to. Obviously, since there are only 4 quadrants to go around. Quadrants weren't even well established until DS9. Federation space does not encompass the entire Alpha Quadrant, and it extends to part of the Beta Quadrant. This is by far the most absurd argument you have come up with so far.

[Anwar]

zar wrote:

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And now you're ridiculing it? Make up your mind.

And why not? We didn't know how many Borg there were, and the cube was enormous. At least 28 cubic kilometers remember?

That's not enough to qualify as a "mobile homeworld" for a civilization like the Borg. The Unicomplex at least would be believable as a mobile homeworld. And the Unicomplex at least matches the "Swarm" thing.

You're grasping at straws. She was describing what happened to her people a century ago. The foreshadowing line is merely "they'll be coming". And they came.

The implication was that their one encounter in "Q Who?" was just the tip of the iceberg and a REAL Borg attack would be far worse.

- They believed the planet killer came from another galaxy, but never found out how it got there and certainly did nothing to prevent more from coming.
- It was obviously a machine built by aliens, but they never found the HQ of those aliens.
- They never found out whether it was the only one.
- They just left it be after only ONE attacked them.

They believed it was an ancient automated weapon and thus not part of some bigger group. They thought it probable that its creators destroyed themselves eons ago, and that it was probably the only one (that it destroyed its creators, likely). It was NOT part of an entire species of sentient Planet Killers that deliberately were out to destroy the Federation.

And it was easier to beat than a Borg Cube.

Planet killer:
Spock: "I can't help wondering if there are any more of those weapons wandering around the universe."

Covered this.

Crystalline Entity:
Not a long-dead remnant. It was alive, with no implication that it was the miraculous sole survivor of an extinct species. So the rest are still out there.

It's not a hostile lifeform out to destroy humanity, and they developed a method of communication with it.

Kevin Uxbridge:
Picard: "We leave behind a being of extraordinary power..."

A compassionate being that felt remorse and had no desire to destroy the Galaxy.

What? There have been plenty of powerful races this doesn't apply to. Obviously, since there are only 4 quadrants to go around. Quadrants weren't even well established until DS9. Federation space does not encompass the entire Alpha Quadrant, and it extends to part of the Beta Quadrant. This is by far the most absurd argument you have come up with so far.

So the Dominion can rule the Gamma Quadrant, but it's absurd for the Borg to rule the Delta Quadrant. Is that it?

[Anwar]

Saquist wrote:

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That's extreme. One little speed advantage out of one ship designed for speed and now the Entire Collective is a bunch of wussies?

Given the audience-reaction to VOY, apparently yes.

That's exactly what did in BOBW so there "emasculated" anyway.

Yeah, and it was only in VOY that anyone whined about it. Double standard.

That's not what I suggested though.

The Klingon situation would have spread to the point it affected humanity and Earth too. Plus the characters all had histories with the Klingons so we can connection there as well.

The VOY crew had NO connection to ANYONE in the DQ, nor would anything happening in the DQ have any effect on Humanity's well-being.

We never saw that ship again. and even after Voyager showed us the Borg again in Scorpion they didn't show the Transwarp tech either.

Actually, we did see that Borg ship again in VOY on a screen readout.

]Yeah, Q said as much that they will out last your reserves, no power limitations like Federation ships are known to have.

They had also already been to the Federation before when they attacked the Neutral Zone. Simple explanation is that they used a Transwarp Conduit.

DS9 did exactly the same as VOY because it all came from one persons...(the two that are one) Brannon and Berman.

Not that I disagree with your criticism of DS9, but it was Ira Behr and Ron Moore who were more in charge of that stuff for that show.

[zar]

Anwar wrote:

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The implication was that their one encounter in "Q Who?" was just the tip of the iceberg and a REAL Borg attack would be far worse.

It was. BOBW was the "REAL Borg attack". This was obvious.

Anwar wrote:

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They believed it was an ancient automated weapon and thus not part of some bigger group. They thought it probable that its creators destroyed themselves eons ago, and that it was probably the only one

All of that came from your imagination. The only thoughts that were actually stated in dialog were:

- it came from outside the galaxy
- it was built by an unknown race
- it was a weapon of mass destruction
- are there more out there?

Anwar wrote:

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Covered this.

Hardly. You said that Spock's uncertainty doesn't compare to Guinan's prediction that they would definitely be coming back. But that prediction was already realized. I'm comparing the uncertainty at the end of BOBW to the uncertainty at the end of TDM, and you changed the rules to compare it to QW instead. Then you changed your argument to say the only suitable conclusion would be completely sealing off the Borg or absolute destruction of their entire race. None of which happened in TDM.

Anwar wrote:

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It's not a hostile lifeform out to destroy humanity, and they developed a method of communication with it.

Hostile or not, it IS out to destroy life, because it feeds on it. Their attempt at communication was a failure.

Anwar wrote:

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So the Dominion can rule the Gamma Quadrant, but it's absurd for the Borg to rule the Delta Quadrant. Is that it?

You're not saying the Borg could rule the Delta Quadrant, you're saying they absolutely must based on the fact that a single point of their territory happens to be there and that the audience would be confused and outraged if it turned out any other way. THAT is absurd.

You seem to have forgotten what we're arguing about. I'm not saying they couldn't have ruled the entire quadrant, I'm saying it was one possibility out of many. You're saying it was the only possibility, in a vain attempt to blame TNG for locking VOY into writing stories that were -- as you claim -- inherently flawed. You painted yourself into a corner by making that claim.

[Anwar]

BOBW was not a "real" attack based on what Q Who? said. Q Who? mentioned swarms, while BOBW was just one ship.

The stuff about the TDM came from the Trek Chronology book (which I think is canon) where it mentions that TDM was also thousands of years old. Being that old makes it a relic, an artifact of a dead species.

You said that Spock's uncertainty doesn't compare to Guinan's prediction that they would definitely be coming back.

It doesn't. TDM was never made out to be anything more than a one-shot, aside from that one line at the end that doesn't really change that. The Borg were made out to be much more than a one-shot, and the wrote themselves into a corner by overpowering them so much.

Hostile or not, it IS out to destroy life, because it feeds on it. Their attempt at communication was a failure.

But it's still more than anything they could accomplish with the Borg. And the Entity wasn't stupidly overpowered either, killing it was very possible (and happened).

You're not saying the Borg could rule the Delta Quadrant, you're saying they absolutely must based on the fact that a single point of their territory happens to be there and that the audience would be confused and outraged if it turned out any other way. THAT is absurd.

So if it turned out that they only had one planet under their control in VOY, you WOULDN'T be utterly let down by that and consider it an "emasculation" of the Borg that they only have one world?

[Luminus]

exodus wrote:

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Is it stated in an ep. that the Borg are upgrading on a faster rate or do we just assume that?

Guinan mentions in "Q Who?" that their technology has been developing for thousands of years. We see them scan the Enterprise computers and immediately, they're technology is the better for it, as they proceed to tear the Enterprise a new @$$hole.

exodus wrote:

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"Hope & Fear" gave the impression that they don't upgrade that fast. "Dark Frointer" showed that even with assimilated knowledge, they could still be fooled using tech they already knew about. Shouldn't the rotating shields not work anymore or allowing a few Borg to die before they adapt to phaser fire? Borg shields should activate upon the first shot if upgraded, especially since they assimilated Starfleet Engineers with knowledge of all that. If we don't stand a chance, why is the Queen still trying to figure out how to bring down our resistance? Why not just come and take us?

Hence the title of this thread. Voyager weakened the Borg. There was a tranwarp conduit 1-light year from Earth, with multiple cubes on the other end. What exactly was stopping the Queen from sending those cubes through to assimilate Earth? That's right, writer incompetence.

There were some other things brought up in this thread, which I'll address:

1) The Borg didn't kill anyone from that world they assimilated in BOBW. The wording was that they "scooped" everything off the planet. The away team beams down there and we see a giant hole where a city was. So what dead bodies are you (Zar) talking about?

2) Here are 2 maps of the Star Trek galaxy:

1

2

So, as you can see, the Federation extends into the Beta Quadrant, explaining that scene in Star Trek: TUC. The quadrant terminology existed as far back as TOS. Canon.

[zar]

Anwar wrote:

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The stuff about the TDM came from the Trek Chronology book (which I think is canon)

Now you're REALLY grasping at straws.

Okay, I'll play along.

The Chronology wasn't published until 1993. That's 6 years after TNG started. So why didn't TNG have a continuity obligation for the first 6 seasons to "conclude" the planet killer like VOY supposedly did with the Borg?

Anwar wrote:

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It doesn't. TDM was never made out to be anything more than a one-shot, aside from that one line at the end that doesn't really change that. The Borg were made out to be much more than a one-shot, and the wrote themselves into a corner by overpowering them so much.

You're selectively ignoring counterarguments again. You're just repeating yourself, while the rest of that paragraph that you conveniently chose not to quote already shot it down.

Anwar wrote:

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But it's still more than anything they could accomplish with the Borg. And the Entity wasn't stupidly overpowered either, killing it was very possible (and happened).

No it isn't more than they accomplished with the Borg. If being able to kill the enemy fits your criteria of a definite conclusion, then the successful destruction of the cube in BOBW must count as well. You haphazardly change the rules to fit your argument.

Anwar wrote:

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So if it turned out that they only had one planet under their control in VOY, you WOULDN'T be utterly let down by that and consider it an "emasculation" of the Borg that they only have one world?

You are truly a master of oversimplification and exaggeration. ONE PLANET is the alternative to A QUARTER OF THE GALAXY?

Besides, it's not only the sheer volume of their territory that's in question here. The point is we had no way to know that it constituted the entire Delta Quadrant. Look at my diagrams again. They could have had controlled an area equal or greater to the size of the Delta Quadrant without encompassing the Delta Quadrant itself. Hell, the DQ conduit terminus could have merely been a single node in a long flight path leading through every quadrant and/or several other galaxies.

Therefore the Voyager was not necessarily bound to run into them. Stop trying to shirk their responsibility to a different show. It was VOY and VOY alone who chose to give the Borg a central homeland at all, let alone put it smack dab in the middle of Voyager's path.

[zar]

Luminus wrote:

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There were some other things brought up in this thread, which I'll address:

1) The Borg didn't kill anyone from that world they assimilated in BOBW. The wording was that they "scooped" everything off the planet. The away team beams down there and we see a giant hole where a city was. So what dead bodies are you (Zar) talking about?

You're right there were no bodies, but then again Guinan didn't say there were bodies either, she said there was "little or nothing left". This was the first clear hint in BOBW that it was in fact the coming attack that Guinan predicted. In QH they merely scoop out part of the Enterprise's hull, for "information gathering". In the real attack they scoop up an entire planet at once, just like Guinan said happened to her people.

And by the way your first hotlink doesn't work... here it is on tinypic: http://i51.tinypic.com/fkzf40.jpg

[Anwar]

zar wrote:

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The Chronology wasn't published until 1993. That's 6 years after TNG started. So why didn't TNG have a continuity obligation for the first 6 seasons to "conclude" the planet killer like VOY supposedly did with the Borg?

The Chronology was made using existing Trek information, meaning it was already in the show's continuity that TDM was thousands of years old. And the episode it was in already implied that in the first place so there was enough wrap-up aside from Spock's meaningless closing line.

You're selectively ignoring counterarguments again. You're just repeating yourself, while the rest of that paragraph that you conveniently chose not to quote already shot it down.

So you're saying that there were definitely going to be other DMs out there for them to run into?

Anwar wrote:

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No it isn't more than they accomplished with the Borg. If being able to kill the enemy fits your criteria of a definite conclusion, then the successful destruction of the cube in BOBW must count as well.

Being able to kill Borg as easily as they learned they could kill the Entity? Yes, that would wrap the Borg up since now they could be killed as easily as the Klingons.

You are truly a master of oversimplification and exaggeration. ONE PLANET is the alternative to A QUARTER OF THE GALAXY?

Hell, the DQ conduit terminus could have merely been a single node in a long flight path leading through every quadrant and/or several other galaxies.

Answer my question, if they only ran into one Borg world in the entire series would you mind?

Therefore the Voyager was not necessarily bound to run into them.

Yes they were, TNG already let us know they were in the Delta Quadrant. And since TOS already said that there was something keeping folks from leaving the Galaxy willy-nilly (the Galactic Barrier), TNG already let us know who was in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, DS9 hoarded the Gamma Quadrant to itself, then that leaves the Borg to the Delta Quadrant in conjunction with prior evidenced. And unless they are utterly half-assed they should rule their home territory. And if they're spread throughout all Quadrants they should constantly be assaulting everyone in all Quadrants for conquest of the Galaxy. This isn't so, seeing all the other shows, so by default they're in the DQ and should rule it.

[zar]

Anwar wrote:

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it was already in the show's continuity that TDM was thousands of years old.

No it wasn't.

Anwar wrote:

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So you're saying that there were definitely going to be other DMs out there for them to run into?

Definitely? No. Maybe? Yes. You're the one implying there definitely weren't going to be more of them while there definitely were going to be more Borg invasions unless it was made clear that they were utterly wiped out. In reality both of them were left with closure to the immediate threat, yet open-ended, which is a good way to end a story because it gives the writers the most freedom for the future.

Anwar wrote:

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Being able to kill Borg as easily as they learned they could kill the Entity?

They found a weakness and exploited it -- in both cases. Circumstances can change; weak points can be defended. If all writers followed your logic that our heroes finding a way to kill an enemy means their threat is gone forever, we'd never have any recurring enemies at all.

Anwar wrote:

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Answer my question, if they only ran into one Borg world in the entire series would you mind?

You are asking two vastly different questions. The first said they only have one world, the second says Voyager only runs into one world. I'll answer both of them.

Your original question:

So if it turned out that they only had one planet under their control in VOY, you WOULDN'T be utterly let down by that and consider it an "emasculation" of the Borg that they only have one world?

It depends what "have under control" means. If it means there is only one planet that has ever been raped by the Borg, yes that would be a letdown considering we already know they've been at it for centuries.

However if it means they are actually controlling the world with some type of government... well, in that case I'd be satisfied with them having zero planets under their control. Because as we were told in Q Who:

Q: "They're not interested in political conquest, wealth or power as you know it. They're simply interested in your ship, its technology."

Your new question:

if they only ran into one Borg world in the entire series would you mind?

No I wouldn't mind. They could pass through a peninsula of Borg-dominated space and only have to confront one cube. Or they could do the sensible thing and run like hell at the first sight of Borg.

Anwar wrote:

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Yes they were, TNG already let us know they were in the Delta Quadrant. And since TOS already said that there was something keeping folks from leaving the Galaxy willy-nilly (the Galactic Barrier), TNG already let us know who was in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, DS9 hoarded the Gamma Quadrant to itself, then that leaves the Borg to the Delta Quadrant in conjunction with prior evidenced. And unless they are utterly half-assed they should rule their home territory. And if they're spread throughout all Quadrants they should constantly be assaulting everyone in all Quadrants for conquest of the Galaxy. This isn't so, seeing all the other shows, so by default they're in the DQ and should rule it.

I commend you for providing an actual argument to back this up for once. It's not true though. There is almost no mention of the Beta Quadrant, and as I've already said Federation space doesn't cover all of the Alpha Quadrant. Not even close. The vast majority is completely unexplored.

Besides that, though, your argument is already self-defeating. It's based on the assumption that the Borg can't coexist in "claimed" space, yet at the same time you're claiming that they own the entire Delta Quadrant despite the fact that we see other affiliations living there as well.

[exodus]

Luminus wrote:

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Guinan mentions in "Q Who?" that their technology has been developing for thousands of years. We see them scan the Enterprise computers and immediately, they're technology is the better for it, as they proceed to tear the Enterprise a new @$$hole.

Yet they still have to figure out the shield & phaser frequency every time?
Hasn't the tech of the Federation been developing for thousands of years too?
Are the Borg just a mirror of us, if we allowed tech to overrun us? Isn't that why Picard & Janeway both keep talking about that's why individuality is better than the hive mind? Isn't that why we keep finding loop holes in their "superior" technology because they don't think of everything?
Didn't Guinan also mention the more the Federation got used to the Borg, we might be able to learn how to deal with them?
So it was planned back then that we'd be able to be somewhat equal in time.

Hence the title of this thread. Voyager weakened the Borg. There was a tranwarp conduit 1-light year from Earth, with multiple cubes on the other end. What exactly was stopping the Queen from sending those cubes through to assimilate Earth? That's right, writer incompetence.

It isn't writer incompetence.
As a writer and producer, why would you sabotage the future of the Trek universe and you're own job by assimilating Earth and ending any future of Trek?
So again going by what Guinan said, one day the Federation would and can get around the Borg. The writers were following their own canon the whole time.