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Old July 28 2011, 01:01 PM   #166
Saquist
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
TNG already finished the Borg as an enemy anyways with BOBW.
There were two more situations afterwards concerning the Borg. I don't really understand this declaration.


There was no way for VOY to top that story since no one would give a damn about the inhabitants of the DQ in comparison to Earth, and all of TNG's post-BOBW stories about the Borg weren't that good either.
That's more to do with a lack of imagination. Voyager chose a safer story concerning the borg. That you could say but to say "there's no way to top" BOBW means you simplly have an exceedingly high view of BOBW. Obviously subjective but I can tell you I've seen much better moments in TV and books and Movies than BOBW with matching acclaim. If Voyager had chose a Dark Knight route Matrix route for the story your voice would be in such a small minority as to not be perceptible. Every story has already been told.

The problem was that TNG left it too open-ended after BOBW, when it should've been made more clear what their intentions were. Either make it clear they're going to keep coming back, or contrive some explanation for why they wouldn't.
They hadn't even established Galactic Quadrants at this time. Where the Borg came from was completely up in the air. At no point did we get any information to tell us that the Borg were a clear and present danger other than the two incursions.

Voyager was the one that added all the transwarp drive, and transwarp corridors so that Voyager could simply catch a ride home. If Star Fleet had any indication that the Borg could travel as fast as they did in Voyager they would be a CLEAR and PRESENT DANGER to the Federation. OF COURSE what Voyager did with the Borg in this area was absurd. Transwarp Borg wasn't even in First Contact. In FACT even in Scorpion the Borg were still using warp. Read G2K's (Darkstar) Star Wars vs Star Trek Tech Assessment for his thoughts on these developments. In any case it's clear that if the Borg had this tech then invading the Federation should have been par for the course.
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Old July 28 2011, 02:01 PM   #167
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

TNG itself was unable to come up with a better story than BOBW. "I, Borg" and "Descent" were the only Borg stories afterwards and neither were that good.

VOY didn't choose a "safer story" with the Borg, there just wasn't any way to tell a more "extreme" story in the first place. They couldn't up the ante from BOBW since they were in the Delta Quadrant and not home, and no one would give a damn if they had a story about VOY saving the DQ from the Borg.

No, the TNG writers themselves came up with the idea that the Borg were from the Delta Quadrant. They invented the Transwarp conduits and gave the Borg superior travel power. They KNEW the Borg could travel fast already, they mention it in BOBW! The TNG writers KNEW they had this tech back in TNG and just did nothing with it, hoping no one would notice or call them on it. They got lucky and VOY didn't.

Like I said, TNG overpowered the Borg too much and did too little to wrap up this plot point.
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Old July 28 2011, 05:13 PM   #168
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

The Borg were weakened after Best Of Both Worlds in my mind but I did think that Scoprion turned out to be the best Borg storyline since Best Of Both Worlds.
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Old July 28 2011, 06:39 PM   #169
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
The problem was that TNG left it too open-ended after BOBW, when it should've been made more clear what their intentions were.
I'm not going to repeat myself, so go back to post 147.


Anwar wrote: View Post
TNG itself was unable to come up with a better story than BOBW.
Wait, say again? This is your response to "that's more to do with lack of imagination"?

You seem to be saying that if TNG itself can't come up with something better, then VOY had no prayer. Implying that you yourself view TNG as the better paragon of imagination.



Saquist wrote: View Post
They hadn't even established Galactic Quadrants at this time. Where the Borg came from was completely up in the air.
We had quadrants actually. The first mention of the Beta Quadrant goes way back to TOS when the Romulan Neutral Zone was introduced, and the others were discussed when those Ferengi went through that wormhole to the Delta Quadrant.

But yes, nobody knew where the Borg came from, which is why DS9 had considered having them come from the Gamma Quadrant.
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Old July 28 2011, 07:20 PM   #170
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

If TNG expected us to believe that BOBW was the end of the Borg threat, then they really either think we're idiots or they needed to work harder. Because BOBW really just left us with a "Great, they just barely beat back ONE attack. What now?"

TNG did an epic story where Earth and all of humanity was nearly destroyed, there was no way for VOY to top that because they were in the DQ. No one would give a damn about VOY doing anything to save the inhabitants of the DQ from the Borg, meaning they had no chance of doing a story equal to BOBW.

TNG said they came from the Delta Quadrant in "Descent". So by DS9 season 2 they did know.
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Old July 28 2011, 07:46 PM   #171
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
If TNG expected us to believe that BOBW was the end of the Borg threat, then they really either think we're idiots or they needed to work harder. Because BOBW really just left us with a "Great, they just barely beat back ONE attack. What now?"
They didn't expect us to believe that.

Nor did the fact that it was open-ended require follow-up invasions.

It's the same as the planet killer. They destroyed ONLY ONE and had no idea who built it or if there are more of them.


Anwar wrote: View Post
No one would give a damn about VOY doing anything to save the inhabitants of the DQ from the Borg, meaning they had no chance of doing a story equal to BOBW.
Yet they tried. They deliberately tried to do something that was, according to you, obviously completely hopeless and nobody would give a damn about, and kept doing it. So they must have been idiots. You're supposed to be defending these people, remember?


Anwar wrote: View Post
TNG said they came from the Delta Quadrant in "Descent". So by DS9 season 2 they did know.
All this tells us is that the Borg have a way of traveling between the AQ and DQ.

The conduit in TNG only revealed a SINGLE POINT that belongs to the Borg.

Why does having a single point in an arbitrary division of space necessitate that a ship lost anywhere within that arbitrary division encounter them? If the galaxy were only divided into halves, and the conduit exited into the Beta Half, then anyone in that half must encounter the Borg?

Last edited by zar; July 28 2011 at 07:58 PM.
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Old July 28 2011, 09:10 PM   #172
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
They didn't expect us to believe that.
They still should have done SOMETHING more than just leave it like that.

Nor did the fact that it was open-ended require follow-up invasions.
That wouldn't fit what Guinan said about them.

Yet they tried. They deliberately tried to do something that was, according to you, obviously completely hopeless and nobody would give a damn about, and kept doing it.
Yeah, they hoped that even though it was hopeless that folks might show some compassion and enjoy the stories regardless. I commend them for thinking they could please the unpleasable audience.

All this tells us is that the Borg have a way of traveling between the AQ and DQ.
If they were from the Alpha Quadrant, they'd have already tried to conquer the Alpha Quadrant first before moving onto the Delta Quadrant. Since they don't rule the AQ, then they're from the DQ and rule that area.
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Old July 28 2011, 09:18 PM   #173
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Why don't you address the counter-arguments instead of selectively replying and repeating your arguments that have already been shot down?
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Old July 28 2011, 10:27 PM   #174
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

You haven't countered Guinan's own insights into the Borg not fitting what happened after BOBW, Descent showing us that the Borg are from the DQ and should rule it like the Dominion rule the GQ, or that VOY had an unpleasable audience.
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Old July 28 2011, 10:42 PM   #175
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
TNG itself was unable to come up with a better story than BOBW. "I, Borg" and "Descent" were the only Borg stories afterwards and neither were that good.
I enjoyed both of them. I, Borg was preachy. about the rules of war and what is justifiable...about conscience and empathy. Descent was about consequence, they finished up the I Borg story line. They were good decent episodes in my book clearly not meant to surpass BOBW.

VOY didn't choose a "safer story" with the Borg, there just wasn't any way to tell a more "extreme" story in the first place.
Sure it was the safe route. Voyager never actually battled a Cube in a pitch contest. VOYAGER NEVER RAN FROM A BORG SHIP. There NEVER was any sort of Chase scene involving the Borg and Voyager. You really think these were the obvious eventualities between the many Borg encounters and Voyager? Not once was Voyager ever Boarded or taken over by the Borg. May I remind you that the Kazon actually DID take over Voyager...They managed to catch and restrain Voyager...but the Borg Could not? With the SAD and Pathetic way Voyager's writers wrote it's two part episodes there was a millioni and one ways to write a more extreme story.

They couldn't up the ante from BOBW since they were in the Delta Quadrant and not home, and no one would give a damn if they had a story about VOY saving the DQ from the Borg.
You could have had a Borg Invasion of any of the ALpha or Beta Quadrants that Voyager would be on the other side of. A lot easier to come up with these ideas that you're making it sound.


No, the TNG writers themselves came up with the idea that the Borg were from the Delta Quadrant.
Galactic Quadrants weren't established until DS9.

They invented the Transwarp conduits and gave the Borg superior travel power.
That was given to the Rebel Borg. Even in Scoprion of Voyager the Cube is STILL USING WARP DRIVE and this is well after TNG. Why would they be using mere warp when the enemy had no problem at all with catching bORG Cubes.

They KNEW the Borg could travel fast already, they mention it in BOBW!
We've only seen a Cube travel at Warp 9.6


Like I said, TNG overpowered the Borg too much and did too little to wrap up this plot point.
Proof is in the putting. Method defeated the Borg not power. IF Power were as much as a consideration as you make it out to be they there should have been repeated use of power vs power with the Borg with the Hero's constantly losing that fight. That doesn't happen in TNG.

zar wrote: View Post



We had quadrants actually. The first mention of the Beta Quadrant goes way back to TOS when the Romulan Neutral Zone was introduced, and the others were discussed when those Ferengi went through that wormhole to the Delta Quadrant.

But yes, nobody knew where the Borg came from, which is why DS9 had considered having them come from the Gamma Quadrant.
I remember they mentioned quadrants but not Galactic Quadrants. TOS threw around the words sector and Quadrant pretty loosely. It wasn't untill maybe Star Trek TUC that there was even the smallest inking that this quadrant thing was Galactic but that's by interpretation, DS9 was the first time the word Quadrant was applied and explained in a Galactic reference and distance. EVEN TUC made being in the Alpa Quadrant no big deal when Excellsior needed to get to the conference in the Beta Quadrant.
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Old July 28 2011, 11:19 PM   #176
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Any sort of chase between a Borg ship and VOY would've been pointless. The end result would still have to be something destroying the Borg Cube.

They didn't do a "Borg try to take over VOY" story because they already did that with the Kazon, and plus they'd lose too many people in the attempt to assimilation for the show to continue on. Plus the Kazon only took Voyager because of internal sabotage.

The audience STILL wouldn't give a damn about random aliens being threatened by the Borg. in BOBW it was humanity and Earth itself threatened so folks cared, in VOY they don't have access to Earth, only Delta Aliens and no one would give a damn about any of them.

The Gamma and Delta Quadrants were mentioned in TNG, like in "The Price".

The Rebel Borg were just using what they commandeered from the rest of the Collective. They didn't make the conduit they stole it from the Collective.

Picard says in BOBW that for the Borg Cube to get from System J-25 to the Federation so soon, they must have superior power and propulsion.

What I mean when I say "Overpowered" is that I don't think making on Cube so powerful was a good idea. One Cube shouldn't be enough to take over the Federation.
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Old July 28 2011, 11:42 PM   #177
Saquist
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Any sort of chase between a Borg ship and VOY would've been pointless. The end result would still have to be something destroying the Borg Cube.
...or it could have ended with Voyager out running the Cube
...or it could have ended with Voyager finding a way for Cube to lose speed
...or it could have led to Voyager being captured...
They didn't do a "Borg try to take over VOY" story because they already did that with the Kazon, and plus they'd lose too many people in the attempt to assimilation for the show to continue on. Plus the Kazon only took Voyager because of internal sabotage.
Is that the reason why they did so many episodes with Voyager being destroyed because it had happened so many times before that the audience found it boring?

The audience STILL wouldn't give a damn about random aliens being threatened by the Borg. in BOBW it was humanity and Earth itself threatened so folks cared, in VOY they don't have access to Earth, only Delta Aliens and no one would give a damn about any of them.
I don't agree.
People care a out the Klingons. That's why TUC worked.

The Gamma and Delta Quadrants were mentioned in TNG, like in "The Price".
Quite right and they did say it ws 50,000 light years away.

The Rebel Borg were just using what they commandeered from the rest of the Collective.
We don't know that.
They didn't make the conduit they stole it from the Collective.
We don't know that either.

Picard says in BOBW that for the Borg Cube to get from System J-25 to the Federation so soon, they must have superior power and propulsion.

What I mean when I say "Overpowered" is that I don't think making on Cube so powerful was a good idea. One Cube shouldn't be enough to take over the Federation.
Why? You've said this before but not to much explanation.
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Old July 29 2011, 12:00 AM   #178
zar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
You haven't countered Guinan's own insights into the Borg not fitting what happened after BOBW,
Yes I have.


Descent showing us that the Borg are from the DQ and should rule it like the Dominion rule the GQ,
Yes I have.

If you're still not getting the picture, I'll draw it for you:



Anwar wrote: View Post
or that VOY had an unpleasable audience.
Of course I didn't counter that. It's not an argument. It's overblown paranoid drivel.
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Old July 29 2011, 12:03 AM   #179
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Saquist wrote: View Post
...or it could have ended with Voyager out running the Cube
And now the Borg are "emasculated" because now the feds can out-run them.

...or it could have ended with Voyager finding a way for Cube to lose speed
And the Borg are "emasculated" for letting the Feds damage them to the extent they could escape.

...or it could have led to Voyager being captured...
And the show is over.

Is that the reason why they did so many episodes with Voyager being destroyed because it had happened so many times before that the audience found it boring?
They hated everytime they did THAT too, so to do that AND tie the Borg to it would be a double no-no.

I don't agree.
People care a out the Klingons. That's why TUC worked.
The Klingons are tied to the human race in terms of consequences and politics. There is NOTHING tying the VOY crew to anyone in the Delta Quadrant.

We don't know that.

We don't know that either.
They had to have gotten that ship from somewhere, and the Borg with Hugh had to have come from somewhere as well.

Picard says in BOBW that for the Borg Cube to get from System J-25 to the Federation so soon, they must have superior power and propulsion.

Why? You've said this before but not to much explanation.
It makes them too hard to re-use.

Imagine if DS9 made one Dominion Bug Fighter strong enough to blast past Starfleet and get to Earth.
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Old July 29 2011, 12:08 AM   #180
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
You haven't countered Guinan's own insights into the Borg not fitting what happened after BOBW,
Yes I have.
Guinan said that they swarmed through her home system, and One Cube is not a "Swarm". She also said they come "in force", again One Cube out of millions is not "In Force".

If it had been the Unicomplex itself coming to attack Earth, and they ended up destroying it THEN there'd be suitable wrap-up because they essentially took out the Borg Homeworld.

Why should we have assumed that their area of influence was confined to, and fully encompassing, the Delta Quadrant -- an area of space whose borders are defined by nothing but the result of dividing by four??
Because that's how Trek does things and divides Huge Empires. Story conceit and if VOY doesn't follow that it just infuriates the unpleasable audience even more.

Of course I didn't counter that. It's not an argument.
Yes, it's the core of VOY's problems.
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