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Old July 28 2011, 02:37 AM   #151
zar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Random conjecture isn't the same as Guinan and Q pretty much telling us the Borg are coming back.
And they did come back. BOBW could have easily been their last appearance, for the same reasons that Doomsday was the first and only appearance of planet killers.


Anwar wrote: View Post
The Gamma Quadrant was one quarter the Galaxy, didn't stop DS9 from continually saying the Dominion ran most of it.
And...? What connection does that have to the Borg? Please explain the course of logic that lead you from "The Dominion run most of the Gamma Quadrant" to "The Borg run most of the Delta Quadrant". DS9 said A. TNG never said B.


Anwar wrote: View Post
And TNG itself said that the Borg were from there in "Descent".
No, the Delta Quadrant wasn't even mentioned until FC.
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Old July 28 2011, 02:53 AM   #152
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

In "Descent" there's a screen readout on the Transwarp Conduit, and it says that it exits into the Delta Quadrant. As in, that's where it goes and Starfleet knows that's where the Borg are located. It's how they knew the Borg were there when they said so in FC.

"And they did come back. BOBW could have easily been their last appearance."

Which wouldn't match up with what Guinan said about them in Q Who?

Sure, they could have done so and gotten away with it because it was TNG and not VOY, which is just double standard but they'd still be out there without the plot being resolved properly.

And...? What connection does that have to the Borg? Please explain the course of logic that lead you from "The Dominion run most of the Gamma Quadrant" to "The Borg run most of the Delta Quadrant". DS9 said A. TNG never said B.
The Dominion are an expansive aggressive group that managed to apparently take over most of their home Quadrant (DS9 keeps flip flopping on whether they really rule the GQ or not), the Borg are older and more powerful than them so it makes sense that they'd similarly rule the Delta Quadrant.

The alternative would be for there to be other species in the DQ that can fight off the Borg and rival them for control of the DQ, and as we saw in VOY the audience can't stand the mere thought of any other species as powerful as the Borg existing anywhere.
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Old July 28 2011, 03:59 AM   #153
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
In "Descent" there's a screen readout on the Transwarp Conduit, and it says that it exits into the Delta Quadrant. As in, that's where it goes and Starfleet knows that's where the Borg are located. It's how they knew the Borg were there when they said so in FC.
First of all, a graphic isn't canon.

So, the conduit leads to the DQ, therefore the Borg are all clustered throughout the entire DQ? The other end of the conduit is, of course, in the AQ. So I guess that means they rule the AQ too?

All this tells us is that the Borg have a way of traveling between the AQ and DQ.

DS9 considered using the Borg as an enemy, having them come through the GQ wormhole. It was never established where the Borg had their major forces and base of operations until VOY.


Anwar wrote: View Post
"And they did come back. BOBW could have easily been their last appearance."

Which wouldn't match up with what Guinan said about them in Q Who?
QH: Guinan says they're coming back.
BOBW: They come back, they are defeated.
The end.

At that point, for all we knew, the BOBW cube was the same cube as in QH, and it was the only one. At the end of BOBW, the Borg were "wrapped up" just as well as the planet killer was at the end of TDM: The threat is destroyed, and the crew is left hoping that's the last of them, but they're not sure... the end.


Anwar wrote: View Post
The Dominion are an expansive aggressive group that managed to apparently take over most of their home Quadrant (DS9 keeps flip flopping on whether they really rule the GQ or not), the Borg are older and more powerful than them so it makes sense that they'd similarly rule the Delta Quadrant.
How did we know how old the Borg were? And you're sidestepping the point. Nobody said the Borg were spread all over the DQ, therefore there was no continuity obligation to encounter them there.


Anwar wrote: View Post
The alternative would be for there to be other species in the DQ that can fight off the Borg and rival them for control of the DQ
Dude, it's a quadrant of the galaxy, not a continent. Nobody has to be in control, and if they are, there's no logical reason that the mathematical delimitation of quadrants would mark the borders of their influence.
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Old July 28 2011, 04:29 AM   #154
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
a graphic isn't canon
If it appears on a view screen during the course of a episode, then it is canon.

Even the Okudagrams that were initially unreadable , but became clear later owing to HD, are canon.
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Old July 28 2011, 06:19 AM   #155
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
zar wrote: View Post
a graphic isn't canon
If it appears on a view screen during the course of a episode, then it is canon.
QFT

At that point, for all we knew, the BOBW cube was the same cube as in QH, and it was the only one. At the end of BOBW, the Borg were "wrapped up" just as well as the planet killer was at the end of TDM: The threat is destroyed, and the crew is left hoping that's the last of them, but they're not sure... the end.
If the implication to the audience is that characters in the series are left unsure, then the writers are leaving us with the impression that it might not be the end. I know I for one was never left with the impression they were wrapped up due to that implication.

. Nobody said the Borg were spread all over the DQ, therefore there was no continuity obligation to encounter them there.
We shouldn't have to be told, we learned about conquers in history class. We know the Borg look for tech, people and information to grow and assimilate. How would you find all that if you didn't send your armies(cubes) out into space looking for it? So yes, one should expect when traveling thru the DQ, that the Borg are also out there looking for new species to assimilate.
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Old July 28 2011, 06:23 AM   #156
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

^That's why I said "wrapped up" in quotation marks. I'm not saying they are, but according to Anwar's criteria they are: If the planet killer is considered wrapped up after TDM, then the Borg can be considered wrapped up after BOBW.
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Old July 28 2011, 06:32 AM   #157
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
^That's why I said "wrapped up" in quotation marks. I'm not saying they are, but according to Anwar's criteria they are: If the planet killer is considered wrapped up after TDM, then the Borg can be considered wrapped up after BOBW.
Honestly, you both are arguing semantics on that one because you're both right. It was an open ended conclusion, so at the time of BOBW it was 50/50 either way.
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Old July 28 2011, 06:53 AM   #158
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

exodus wrote: View Post
zar wrote: View Post
^That's why I said "wrapped up" in quotation marks. I'm not saying they are, but according to Anwar's criteria they are: If the planet killer is considered wrapped up after TDM, then the Borg can be considered wrapped up after BOBW.
Honestly, you both are arguing semantics on that one because you're both right. It was an open ended conclusion, so at the time of BOBW it was 50/50 either way.
You're not following this conversation. That WAS my point -- it's open-ended, just like the planet killers and all those other examples of high tech or powerful beings.

The problem is Anwar's own semantics doesn't agree with itself. He says BOBW didn't "wrap up" the Borg, but TDM did "wrap up" the planet killers. You can't have it both ways.



exodus wrote: View Post
Nobody said the Borg were spread all over the DQ, therefore there was no continuity obligation to encounter them there.
We shouldn't have to be told, we learned about conquers in history class. We know the Borg look for tech, people and information to grow and assimilate. How would you find all that if you didn't send your armies(cubes) out into space looking for it? So yes, one should expect when traveling thru the DQ, that the Borg are also out there looking for new species to assimilate.
Again. It's a quadrant. Not a continent.

The conduit in TNG only revealed a SINGLE POINT that belongs to the Borg. It could have been the tip of an iceberg that extends outside the galaxy, and/or to parts of the Beta and Gamma quadrants.

Why should we have assumed that their area of influence was confined to, and fully encompassing, the Delta Quadrant -- an area of space whose borders are defined by nothing but the result of dividing by four??

The only reason we assume the Dominion controls the entire Gamma Quadrant is because DS9 explicitly said so. Dominion space would most likely extend across the borders of the quadrant as well.

It's not a territory.

It's not a barrier.

It's two lines drawn with a ruler and measuring tape.
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Old July 28 2011, 07:05 AM   #159
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

You're not following this conversation.
Forgive me but no I really haven't.
Both of you have been going on for a couple of pages, I really don't have the patience/time to read it all. I the best I could do is skim. I hope you can empathize with that.

Why should we have assumed that their area of influence was confined to, and fully encompassing, the Delta Quadrant -- an area of space whose borders are defined by nothing but the result of dividing by four??
I'm not.
They've stated once the Borg are present in all four quads, however due to that I still would expect to see them in what was their quad of origin.
I know the difference between a land mass and open space.
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Old July 28 2011, 07:18 AM   #160
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

exodus wrote: View Post
Why should we have assumed that their area of influence was confined to, and fully encompassing, the Delta Quadrant -- an area of space whose borders are defined by nothing but the result of dividing by four??
I'm not.
They've stated once the Borg are present in all four quads.
OK, scratch "confined to". Why does having a single point in an arbitrary division of space necessitate that a ship lost anywhere within that arbitrary division encounter them? If the galaxy were only divided into halves, and the conduit exited into the Beta Half, then anyone in that half must encounter the Borg? This is what Anwar is claiming -- that the writers had no choice but to have Voyager go through Borg Central, just because it was the Delta Quadrant.
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Old July 28 2011, 07:27 AM   #161
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Why should we have assumed that their area of influence was confined to, and fully encompassing, the Delta Quadrant -- an area of space whose borders are defined by nothing but the result of dividing by four??
I'm not.
They've stated once the Borg are present in all four quads.
OK, scratch "confined to". Why does having a single point in an arbitrary division of space necessitate that a ship lost anywhere within that arbitrary division encounter them? If the galaxy were only divided into halves, and the conduit exited into the Beta Half, then anyone in that half must encounter the Borg? This is what Anwar is claiming -- that the writers had no choice but to have Voyager go through Borg Central, just because it was the Delta Quadrant.
I agree with him and as far as I'm aware, so did many fans.
I recall fans asking as far back as season 2, if Voyager would encounter the Borg because they were in their quad.?
So yeah, if the viewers were asking for them and them being popular villains, I would think in the writers would feel obligated to write them in. Why wouldn't it be in the back of your mind that a ship(even just one), stuck in the DQ might encounter them?
If you were one ship alone in the Beta Quad., you wouldn't expect to come across the Romulans?
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Last edited by exodus; July 28 2011 at 07:38 AM.
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Old July 28 2011, 07:38 AM   #162
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I agree that if they hadn't done something with the Borg, it would have been a missed opportunity. But see post 145. Basically, Anwar shot himself in the foot by claiming that the Borg was a concept inherently incapable of being handled well more than a couple times.
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Old July 28 2011, 07:51 AM   #163
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
I agree that if they hadn't done something with the Borg, it would have been a missed opportunity. But see post 145. Basically, Anwar shot himself in the foot by claiming that the Borg was a concept inherently incapable of being handled well more than a couple times.
Well, isn't that why folks think Voyager weakened the Borg?
Due to Voyager getting around them AND Janeway, Tuvok & B'Elanna being assimilated and saved with no long term scars kinda supported showing them a few to many times weakened their fear factor. The more we learned about them, the less of a true threat they seemed. They're the Jason Voohees of Trek. IT went from: "Eek! It's Jason. Too: "Oh, is he back AGAIN!?!"
Even looking back on TNG, "I, Borg & Decent" are pretty stupid stories and already started to make the Borg look like idiots.
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Old July 28 2011, 07:53 AM   #164
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
No, it's TNG for not getting rid of them in a final way in the first place. At least DS9 ended the Dominion story with SOME conclusion so it'd be okay to not see them again.
That sounds a bit insane...
Are you blaming the Series for not putting away a near unbeatable enemy in an argument about another series making them too weak?
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Old July 28 2011, 12:41 PM   #165
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

TNG already finished the Borg as an enemy anyways with BOBW. There was no way for VOY to top that story since no one would give a damn about the inhabitants of the DQ in comparison to Earth, and all of TNG's post-BOBW stories about the Borg weren't that good either.

The problem was that TNG left it too open-ended after BOBW, when it should've been made more clear what their intentions were. Either make it clear they're going to keep coming back, or contrive some explanation for why they wouldn't.
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