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Old July 3 2011, 07:29 PM   #16
JES
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

Then again, another idea might be that the reason that registries are all over the place, especially early on (other than the fact that not enough thought was put into them in the first place) was because they were assigned somewhat according to class and/or vessel type. I don't remember exactly where I read this, but it could be a factor in how registries got assigned.

I've run into quite a few registries that have been assigned to starbases, which are in the 6000-range; such as Starbase One NCC-6042 and of course Starbase 25 NCC-6608. Perhaps this means that Starbases, at least for a certain amount of time, were assigned registries within the 6000 range.
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Old July 4 2011, 08:55 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

I'm still sort of opposed to making the Copernicus into a small, shipboard auxiliary, when she could more directly represent the "runabout" school of thought and be distinguished by the factors we already witnessed in the episode: a rather cavernous interior for long endurance, an overall size worthy of a long range vessel, and a complex stern structure that features exotic doorway arrangements and quite possibly also hides an elevator or a stair of some sort to allow our heroes to descend to the surface.

But if it's going to be a shipboard craft, the Copernicus is probably best described exactly as you make it look: true to the general shape and feel of the cartoon art, but with the rounded edges and solid shapes familiar from the TOS prop. An impulse engine integrated into the aft hatch would probably be fine, considering the TNG "postcedent"...

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Old July 4 2011, 09:37 PM   #18
Warped9
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

Timo wrote: View Post
I'm still sort of opposed to making the Copernicus into a small, shipboard auxiliary, when she could more directly represent the "runabout" school of thought and be distinguished by the factors we already witnessed in the episode: a rather cavernous interior for long endurance, an overall size worthy of a long range vessel, and a complex stern structure that features exotic doorway arrangements and quite possibly also hides an elevator or a stair of some sort to allow our heroes to descend to the surface.

But if it's going to be a shipboard craft, the Copernicus is probably best described exactly as you make it look: true to the general shape and feel of the cartoon art, but with the rounded edges and solid shapes familiar from the TOS prop. An impulse engine integrated into the aft hatch would probably be fine, considering the TNG "postcedent"...

Timo Saloniemi
As far as I'm concerned what I'm drawing is not a vehicle for assignment to a starship as part of its regular shuttlecraft complement. Neither are the other TAS designs. They're based at starbases and outposts and can be loaned out for specific missions. As compact as I can try to make them so they can at least be parked temporarily on a starship flight deck they're still just too big to be part of the regular complement.

While I am trying to add some detail to make the design look more complete I cannot integrate an impulse engine setup (that I care for) without starting to really change the overall look of the craft. I've tried...numerous times.

Oddly I'm not that crazy about these designs. I think I could do better with a fresh design. But the point is to rationalize what we saw onscreen rather than completely re-imagining them. So I'm doing the best I can with what we were given onscreen.
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Old July 5 2011, 12:28 AM   #19
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

My two quatloos FWIW, is to regard the TAS designs as kinda like rough concept sketches and then fine tune them from that starting point?

Your design here looks great so far Warped9, though it seems impulse engines would/could be mounted on either side of the aft exit, no?
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Old July 5 2011, 01:23 AM   #20
Warped9
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
My two quatloos FWIW, is to regard the TAS designs as kinda like rough concept sketches and then fine tune them from that starting point?
Yes. Particularly in the "Slaver Weapon" scoutship I've incorporated a touch of the Class F's wedge shape concept to it. I then shortened it considerably while trying to maintain something of the overall look of angularity albeit softened a bit. Hence the slightly curved lines rather than dead straight and rounded edges rather than sharp. Then it's a matter of adding just enough telling detail without overdoing it. I also try to interpret what I see. On the scoutship design there is something of a elongated triangle shape on the lower side of forward hull. I dismissed it being a pennant or marking. It is just too weird shaped to be a service access panel. So in a forthcoming update you'll see I've interpreted as a form of concavity in the hull, which does add some interesting visual texture and detail to the overall plain surfaces.

The heavy lander design from "Mudd's Passion" is already sketched out and while I again maintain the overall shape I rescaled it drastically. Taken at the scale the craft is shown onscreen it would never fit on the Enterprise's flight deck. As a result you'll see that the access hatchway is a lot larger than what we saw onscreen.

Considering how I intend to explain or rationalize these craft it's interesting to note that although all of them our larger overall than the familiar Class F design they're each not as mission flexible. The scout comes closet, but it's still primarily a fast long range craft. The heavy lander is specifically for surveying extreme environments and so it's a short duration vehicle with limited accommodations for no more than three personnel. It's meant to be rugged with sturdier shielding and structural enhancements and is more space friendly for specialized survey equipment rather than personnel. It's a low warp vehicle---not much more than Warp 1. And, of course, the aquashuttle has no warp capability and is strictly meant as a near space or orbit to surface (and under) craft. I haven't yet decided on its submerged capabilities.

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
Your design here looks great so far Warped9, though it seems impulse engines would/could be mounted on either side of the aft exit, no?
I tried that, but what bothers me is that there really isn't a lot of room unless you start making the craft bigger, and that starts getting back into a problem of being oversized after I had just managed to get its size down to something somewhat manageable. Also note how large the Class F's impulse thrust components are in relation to its overall size or at least to what you can see from the aft end. I wanted to maintain something of that proportion when incorporating it to these designs to seem more credible and consistent with what TOS had established with its shuttlecraft. I can do it easily with the heavy lander. I don't have to do it with the aquashuttle because I'm not thinking of trying to submerge impulse engines and so the craft has an antigrav drive for atmospheric and space flight. Regarding the scoutship since I can't fit an impulse drive to my satisfaction then I'll just incorporate an antigrav drive.

Of course it should be noted that the impulse engines of the Enterprise look to be really quite small in relation to the overall size of the ship. But with a shuttlecraft I reason they can only get so small. And note that in TNG and DS9 there don't appear to actual be any visible impulse components on their shuttles and runabouts even though they make reference to them. Perhaps they also use an antigrav drive and yet still refer to it as impulse?


Note, sadly I don't know how to do 3D modeling, but it would be nice if someone would be interested in trying to computer model this and/or the others to get some idea what this would really look like. If anyone is interested than I could provide the drawings for it.
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Last edited by Warped9; July 5 2011 at 03:10 PM.
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Old July 5 2011, 05:01 PM   #21
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

Here's an idea: the impulse engines could be incorporated into those little fin-lets on the lower rear-quarters of the craft. In a sense, that would make the ship's impulse drive into a kind of "nacelle" arrangement.
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Old July 6 2011, 03:10 AM   #22
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

^^ I thought of that, but I still think it's too small. No, I'm going to stick with my original plan and I'll also have extra detail for the aft landing struts.
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Old July 7 2011, 01:01 AM   #23
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

Here is some progress with only a few more details to go. Then I'm going to commit them to styled sheets just like my Class F drawings.



I'm a little surprised. Although I haven't got a finalized figure yet I just did a little quick-and-dirty calculation. My rough figure for length overall at present comes out to 29.58 ft. (just under 29'-7") or 9.015m. That's barely over 3 feet more than my final length overall of my Class F design.

I figured (roughly) that this craft would be closer to about 35 ft. overall. If true then it means I have just a little bit more room to play with in overall size, perhaps up to about 3 feet more. Still, I want to keep it down as much as possible, but at least I now know the craft will be no less than 29.58 ft.
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Old July 8 2011, 05:44 AM   #24
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

More detailing and a view of the bottom for those interested.

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Old July 8 2011, 08:48 AM   #25
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

FYI, your design works pretty well... but there's no reason that a "longer version" of this might not also exist, is there? If this was longer, wouldn't that be EXACTLY (within reason) what was seen on TAS?

I may choose to copy from this a bit, when I make my own version (stored under the long rectangular block on the underside of the secondary hull)... to be "all part of one big happy fleet."

Just curious... any though (in your mind) as to what purpose the "skiis" on the landing struts serve?

Me, I was thinking about making them literal skiis...
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Old July 8 2011, 01:21 PM   #26
Warped9
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

I've always thought the skiis on the onscreen version look silly and so very '50's. That's why I reinterpreted them as antigrav stabilizers and arranged them in a way so that from a distance they might still look close enough to what was seen onscreen, but now there is better and (I think) more interesting detail.

Yes there could be a longer version "out there" but I think it looks rather odd when it's that stretched out so I'm sticking with this approach---I think it looks more visually balanced overall.

Now it's a matter of adding a few more details: some service access panels around the hull and small details on the nacelles and landing struts. Then I'll put the views framed individually with styled sheets like I did with my TOS shuttlecraft drawings. Then I'll move onto some cross-section views although they won't be as elaborate as my those I'm doing for the Class F. I'd also like to do one or two perspective drawings and/or maybe even a photoshop version. When done then it's on to the heavy lander design.

I must say I rather like how I was able to take certain simplified elements of the onscreen design and make them look somewhat more credible. The aft bottom section that is slightly curved could be seen as evoking the Enterprise's secondary hull fantail (visually) below the hangar bay. The antigrav stabilizers attached to the landing struts replace the dated looking landing skids. The aft landing struts are angled a bit towards the back to evoke that splayed out look seen from the front three-quarters view onscreen. The concavity on the forward sides of the hull are only a simple elongated triangle onscreen. Overall I think it worked it well enough in being immediately recognizable and yet looking more detailed and believable.


I'd also really like to see this done as a 3D model.
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Last edited by Warped9; July 8 2011 at 01:32 PM.
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Old July 8 2011, 02:09 PM   #27
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Registry Codes and Ship Types
  • NX Federation, Starfleet, Experimental (USS Excelsior, NX-2000) ST III:TSFS
  • NAR Federation, non-Starfleet, Research (SS Vico, NAR-18834) TNG "Hero Worship"
  • NCC Federation, Starfleet, Active service (USS Enterprise, NCC-1701) TOS
  • NDT Federation, non-Starfleet, Transport (SS Milan, NDT-50863) TNG "New Ground"
  • NFT Federation (Lakul, NFT-7793) ST:G, Nemecek
  • NGL Federation, non-Starfleet, Freighter (SS Odin, NGL-12535) TNG "Angel One"
  • NSP Federation, Vulcan, Science (T'Pau, NSP-17938) TNG "Unification: Part I"
Those are some good ones. I'll have to add a few to the SSDB, it seems. Here are the ones I've collected over the years:
  • NCC ------- Naval Construction Contract
  • NCC-FXXXX - Naval Construction Contract/Freighter-Tender
  • NCC-SXXXX - Naval Construction Contract/Support Vessel
  • NCC-GXXXX - Naval Construction Contract/General Use
  • NX -------- Naval Experiment
  • NCO ------- Naval Construction Order (For Alternate-Federation Vessels)
  • NSX ------- Naval SpecialOps Experiment (I think)
  • Q --------- Intelligence "Q-Ship"
  • C --------- Contract # (For pre-Federation Vessels)
  • DT -------- Designated Tactical Vessel
  • FCC ------- Fleet Command Crusier
  • FF -------- Frigate Flagship/Fast Frigate
  • FR -------- Freighter (For pre-Federation Vessels)
  • L --------- Luxury/Civilian
  • G --------- General Use
  • SFDD ------ Starfleet Drydock
  • TP -------- Travel Pod Registry
  • NAR ------- Naval Auxiliary Resource
  • NAK ------- Naval Auxiliary Resource - Merchant Marine/Logistics
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Old July 8 2011, 07:14 PM   #28
TIN_MAN
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

To me, those landing "skiis" look very much like what Jefferies had on his small phase II shuttlecraft? I think he intended them to be weapons, did he not? Anywho, something to think about maybe?
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Old July 9 2011, 03:22 AM   #29
Warped9
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

Very rarely does a concept sketch look very much like the final product. You're trying new ideas and sometimes still tied to some old ideas until you really start fleshing things out.

For example I've always disliked the Deadelus-class design because it looks so much like one of Jefferies' early concepts for the Enterprise yet without adding anything to it. I see it as lazy work. I think something decent could have made of the concept, but they just didn't bother from what I see. They just hashed something out.

I look at Jefferies' early concept for the TOS shuttlecraft as interesting, but it's not finished. To my eye it just looks too wide and some of it doesn't work well. I do think something could be made from it, but I see it as a starting point and not a finished design.

I see the TAS designs in much the same way. They were quickly hashed out and little thought seems to have really been put into them. And so as has been suggested upthread I look at the TAS designs as concepts or rough sketches that need to be fleshed out and massaged into something more credible and coherent.
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Old July 9 2011, 04:54 AM   #30
TIN_MAN
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Re: Ray's TAS shuttlecraft...

Not sure if the above was in response to my previous post or not, so let me be more specific, just in case? I was talking about the Phase II shuttle that was a finished concept, fully fleshed out and ready to go to the model stage. Specifically, the wing mounted "guns" which are similar to the "skis" on the TAS shuttle.

Here's a linky.... http://www.ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/phase2_1.php ,Just thought I'd throw that out there, for whatever it's worth.
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