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Old June 28 2011, 06:20 PM   #31
Merry Christmas
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Re: The Prime Directive

Not interferring in the Klingon's politics is more likely because the Klingon Empire is a sovereign nation, and not because of an part on the prime directive.

Also because the civil war was initially thought to be between two rival Klingon political factions. Once there was proof that there was an outside force involved, Gowron was able to invoke a pre-existing treaty with the Federation.

He was unable to do this while the Federation thought everything was internal.

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Old June 28 2011, 09:17 PM   #32
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Re: The Prime Directive

My understanding of the Klingon Civil War once Romulan involvement became appaerant because of the Federation blockade. (The Federation didn't take sides, it just prevented outside interferrence in an internal matter). Support for the Duras collapsed as the general perception amognest most Klingons is that the Romulans are without honour who attack you whilst they are supposed to your ally.
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Old June 28 2011, 10:21 PM   #33
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Re: The Prime Directive

The reasons for not interfering and taking sides is because we don't know for sure what that might do to other civilizations (countries), and most of the time it's going to turn out bad, more or less (look at all the terrorist threat the U.S. has gotten over the years and genocides that we helped started in other countries). I think it is misguided to trust the politicians (or in this case the Star Fleet officers) to make those decisions for us whether or not we should get involved in foreign wars or nation building because these people are not enlightened or wise and knowlegeble enough to foresee any future problems that may arises. This sort of stuff is not an exact science...the same is true for psychology...because people problems and behaviors is very, very complex and a lot of things play roles on what choices we make and it's not certain why some people choose to do things that they do, even if you ask the perpetrators, they might not even know for sure what the problem really is themselves. And plus now we have pissed off Romulans by exposing them. The Romulans didn't do this on their own, the Klingons (Durass sisters) asked them for help. We shouldn't take sides and try to police everyone. We can't do that all the time and you can't force people to swallow the stuff you think is right. These things take time and we have to show our good intention by not getting involve with anybody. We can try to change their opinions by diplomacy and economic incentive which works better since no one dies and economic incentives help improve their people's living standards. Angry people can be made happy again, but you can't bring back dead people, according to Thomas Jefferson and Tsung'su. If the Federation and U.S. stick to this believe by not getting involve, more and more people will start to listen and probably model their constitutions after the Founding Fathers, or in this case the Fed's Constitutions. Switzerlands is the only country that has never had any terrorist attack because they have chosen to remain nuetral and never taken sides or get involved in any foreign wars. If you want people to listen and not having to worried about getting your country bombed to bits, then taking a nuetral stand is much better. We later see the Romulans plotting in secrecy to destroy the Federation by assasinating all the Senators and giving the power to Shinzon so he would do it for them. They have even gone so far as planning to kidnap Picard and replace him with a clone of him. So now the Fed also have to put up with pissed off Romulans. And by making the Klingons our ally, I'm sure other alien powers (for example, the Romulans), that were the Klingons' enemies, wished that the Fed would also suffer the same fate. It doesn't make any sense by signing the peace treaty with the Klingons and then trying to prevent outsiders from interfering in Klingons politics. They are already knee deep in shit. That's jut bad policies.
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Old June 29 2011, 09:44 AM   #34
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Re: The Prime Directive

^You do realise that there are alternatives to the US style of government, the other most common being a Parlimentary system. And in the case of ST, what limited evidence we have seems to indicate that by the mid 22nd Century Earth had a parlimentary system of government, i.e the title Minister being used. Though it doesn't mean they don't elect a head of state as well as head of Government.
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Old June 29 2011, 02:41 PM   #35
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Re: The Prime Directive

They have president which represents all the Federation worlds and not a prime minister. If I'm correct, they probably also have senators, which are representatives of different worlds.

I'm not a U.S. citizen, but IMO the Roman form of government is much better than any other type of system, which the Founding Fathers model the infrastructure after. Even a lot of the laws that are currently being used in the U.S. are almost the exact duplicate of the Roman laws, but a lot of them are also ripped off from English old laws.
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Old June 29 2011, 09:57 PM   #36
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Re: The Prime Directive

Paradon wrote: View Post
They have president which represents all the Federation worlds and not a prime minister.
But Earth's own government appears to be mixed. United Earth is a parliamentary republic - a President as head of state, and a Prime Minister as head of government. This is wholly separate from Federation governmental structure, which has a President as both roles. (Delegates from Federation worlds, Earth included, are Councillors.)
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Old June 30 2011, 02:32 AM   #37
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Re: The Prime Directive

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Paradon wrote: View Post
They have president which represents all the Federation worlds and not a prime minister.
But Earth's own government appears to be mixed. United Earth is a parliamentary republic - a President as head of state, and a Prime Minister as head of government. This is wholly separate from Federation governmental structure, which has a President as both roles. (Delegates from Federation worlds, Earth included, are Councillors.)
Yeah but there are no politicians. The Federation has its own set of base laws with only some "traditional" and cultural respective planetary laws still in effect.

As far as Earth is concerned in Star Trek. Its a utopian planet where human rights are observed in every corner. People are free to live whatever lifestyle they choose (as long as its legal) and as a result, they've eliminated all major social and economic problems and crime is at a record low (it probably still occurs, but not at the frequency it does in our current time period).
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Old July 1 2011, 01:44 AM   #38
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Re: The Prime Directive

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Yeah but there are no politicians.
Regardless of the form of the federation's government, any persons in the upper levels of that government, forming policy and making decisions, would be a "politician."

As far as Earth is concerned in Star Trek. Its a utopian planet ...
Problem is, we've seen so little of Earth, it really is hard to definitely state that it's "a utopia." At best, Earth might be a generally pleasant place, kind of in line with the present day western nations. Not strictly speaking a paradise, but still okay. But even in the 24th century, there could be a segment of the population who don't fit into the societal norm. It's almost inevitable. How will Earth's greater society treat these people.

Bele: "We've got your kind penned ... into little districts, and it's not going to change."

People are free to live whatever lifestyle they choose (as long as its legal)
That's basically what we have now. Problem is the "as long as its legal" part. Don't get me wrong, enormous societies will need rules to exist. But there is the threat that "politicians" will take those rules beyond the minimal necessary, and the minimal possible.

Paradon wrote: View Post
Switzerlands is the only country that has never had any terrorist attack because they have chosen to remain nuetral and never taken sides or get involved in any foreign wars.
You have to admit, all that would make Switzerland a crappy ally.

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Old July 1 2011, 03:06 AM   #39
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Re: The Prime Directive

I just like to add that...I'm sure there are legislators, people who make laws and policies. they would be considered politicians.
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Old July 2 2011, 07:40 AM   #40
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Re: The Prime Directive

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Paradon wrote: View Post
They have president which represents all the Federation worlds and not a prime minister.
But Earth's own government appears to be mixed. United Earth is a parliamentary republic - a President as head of state, and a Prime Minister as head of government. This is wholly separate from Federation governmental structure, which has a President as both roles. (Delegates from Federation worlds, Earth included, are Councillors.)
I'm as big a fan of including info from the novels as anyone, but we should specify here that the President of United Earth, Prime Minister of United Earth, and representatives of Federation Members being called "Councillor," are all from the various non-canonical novels published by Pocket Books.

For the record, Pocket has established that each Federation Member gets a single Federation Councillor; the manner in which that Councillor is chosen is determined by the Federation Member in question. Andor, for instance, has their Federation Councillor chosen along with the rest of the Andorian Cabinet on the basis of which Andorian political party wins a majority of seats in the Parliament Andoria, while Betazed's is popularity elected. When Bajor joins, its Federation Councillor is appointed by the First Minister with the ratification of the Chamber of Ministers. Etc.

Captain M wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Paradon wrote: View Post
They have president which represents all the Federation worlds and not a prime minister.
But Earth's own government appears to be mixed. United Earth is a parliamentary republic - a President as head of state, and a Prime Minister as head of government. This is wholly separate from Federation governmental structure, which has a President as both roles. (Delegates from Federation worlds, Earth included, are Councillors.)
Yeah but there are no politicians.
Absolute hogwash. There will always be politicians, because there will always be a need to make decisions as communities. As long as that is necessary, there will be someone or someones making decisions on the community's behalf. As long as civilization itself exists, there will be politicians.

The Federation has its own set of base laws with only some "traditional" and cultural respective planetary laws still in effect.
Actually, the evidence seems to be that Federation Members all retain their own local governments with a great deal of autonomy within the Federation's wider political system. The Federation is, after all, a federation.

Also, we've seen Federation politicians. Spock's father, Ambassador Sarek, is clearly a politician. (Diplomacy is a form of politics.) The Federation Presidents seen in Star Trek IV, Star Trek VI, and DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost." And, frankly, every time we saw Picard or Sisko take a stance that affected larger policy -- from Picard defending Data's rights as a sentient being in "A Measure of a Man" to Sisko persuading the Federation to go to war with the Dominion in "A Call to Arms" -- we saw our own Starfleet heroes being politicians. Politicians, after all, are not inherently horrible creatures or some sort of awful thing. Politicians are simply people who have chosen to make the question of how power ought to be distributed within society their profession.
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