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View Poll Results: Rate Children Of The Storm.
Outstanding 64 52.89%
Above Average 41 33.88%
Average 11 9.09%
Below Average 1 0.83%
Poor 4 3.31%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 27 2011, 06:19 AM   #166
bok2384
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
What I'm sying is I felt he should have been more of a free spirit. Ethical, more, and non-selfish, yes but also more willing to stand up to Janeway when he felt she was wrong. He left Starfleet because he felt starfleet had lost its moral compass and had betrayed his people. i wanted to see him stand up to Janeway more, at least in private. There could have been some excellent debates between them such as whether or not to go after the omega particle but instead he always seemed to be a yes man.
Huh? That's exactly what did happen in episodes like "Scorpion" and "Equinox." Chakotay's arguments with Janeway over the right course of action, bordering on open defiance of policies he thought was wrong, were major driving factors in both those 2-parters. So he certainly didn't always defer to her.
But I don't think he ever challenged her anymore than any starfleet officers did their captains. First season Kira challenged Sisko more. I wanted some drama on the level of Lily and Picard in FC. Chakotay wasn't enough of a free thinker to me. His personality was definitely never explored as well in the show as it is in the books. I feel like I didn't get to know Chakotay as an individual until the relaunch.
Quoted for absolute truth. True, Chakotay did challenge Janeway a couple of times, but she just steamrolled him. Look at "Scorpion, Part II", when Chakotay dared to defy the wishes of the all-powerful Janeway by ending the alliance with the Borg, she relieved him of duty and locked him up in his quarters.

Considering how she treated him, I'm not surprised that he didn't stand up to her more often, although when he did it felt like lip service. As a result, Chakotay was my least favorite character, but Full Circle took him, sent him to hell and back and, as a result, gave us all a shared experience and insight into the man and a new-found respect.

OK, maybe he was a quiet and spiritual man who wasn't all about shouting his mouth off and defying the rules like Kira, but as first officer it was his job to make Janeway see that some of her decisions were misguided, maybe even moronic.

Just my two cents.

Edited to add: Maybe the problem is not just confined to Chakotay. I fail to recall a single incident where a member of her crew were able to change Janeway's mind. I may be wrong, I'm rewatching Voyager at the moment, but I'm only up to "Eye of the Needle".
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Old June 27 2011, 06:31 AM   #167
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

There are times when Janeway listens. Chakotay spoke up in "Unimatrix Zero," refusing to support her desire to go to the Borg alone, and Janeway revised her plans. In "Night," the crew defies her when she suggests staying behind as the ship escapes. Again, she modifies her plans. In "Year of Hell," when Chakotay suggests that it might be time to abandon the ship, she doesn't disagree, she just says, "Not yet." In the episode "Omega Directive," she abandons her Starfleet orders and lets the crew help her deal with the problem. So, yeah, she does listen.

What we see of their interaction focuses on times of conflict, because that is what is interesting. However, I think they might have worked more closely on some plans than was ever shown on the program. There were probably many (unfilmed) times where he confronted her in the planning stages and influenced her final decision. To show that week after week would have been deadly dull.

The real relationship between Janeway and Chakotay is largely undeveloped. In later seasons, their interaction is often filmed as they walk through the ship, for some reason. But we know that they met regularly after hours for meals and that they probably talked through situations and scenarios in exhaustive detail. One thing I've noticed is that they almost always have fallback positions and contingency plans in place ahead of time.

Of course, I'm talking about the series here, not the book. Haven't read it.
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Old June 27 2011, 06:45 AM   #168
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

[QUOTE=bok2384;5062040]
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Chakotay did challenge Janeway a couple of times, but she just steamrolled him. Look at "Scorpion, Part II", when Chakotay dared to defy the wishes of the all-powerful Janeway by ending the alliance with the Borg, she relieved him of duty and locked him up in his quarters.
That happened in "Equinox, Part II."

In "Scorpion, Part II," she listens to Chakotay and sets up contingency plans in case Seven actually tries to betray them. That's why Chakotay is "hooked up" and waiting for her to delare "Scorpion." So, in that episode, she listens, too, but the changes happen off screen.

I don't understand why Janeway is "labeled" as a captain who doesn't listen to her crew, when she does, many times. It seems to me that people just don't pay very close attention to Janeway's actions, or perhaps just don't remember those times because they are more impressed by the other times when she steadfastly refuses to budge. The one that sticks in my mind is when she refuses to drop Starfleet principles when the ship is in "The Void." In that case, she was right and managed to escape by making friends instead of raiding other ships.

Oh, she also listened to her crew when they suggested that they ally themselves with the Trabe in "Alliances," which turned out to be a terrible mistake. Sometimes, the captain just might be right to ignore the crew's advice!
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Old June 27 2011, 12:12 PM   #169
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
But I don't think he ever challenged her anymore than any starfleet officers did their captains. First season Kira challenged Sisko more. I wanted some drama on the level of Lily and Picard in FC. Chakotay wasn't enough of a free thinker to me. His personality was definitely never explored as well in the show as it is in the books. I feel like I didn't get to know Chakotay as an individual until the relaunch.
Both Lily and Kira were not Starfleet officers. Kira only became one for a specific mission to Cardassia in season 7 of DS9, and then officially in the relaunch. Lily was from 21st century Earth...

But I do agree that the Kirsten's relaunch has been amazing for Captain Chakotay and his personality
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Old June 27 2011, 03:35 PM   #170
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

[QUOTE=AuntKate;5062080]
bok2384 wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Chakotay did challenge Janeway a couple of times, but she just steamrolled him. Look at "Scorpion, Part II", when Chakotay dared to defy the wishes of the all-powerful Janeway by ending the alliance with the Borg, she relieved him of duty and locked him up in his quarters.
That happened in "Equinox, Part II."

In "Scorpion, Part II," she listens to Chakotay and sets up contingency plans in case Seven actually tries to betray them. That's why Chakotay is "hooked up" and waiting for her to delare "Scorpion." So, in that episode, she listens, too, but the changes happen off screen.

I don't understand why Janeway is "labeled" as a captain who doesn't listen to her crew, when she does, many times. It seems to me that people just don't pay very close attention to Janeway's actions, or perhaps just don't remember those times because they are more impressed by the other times when she steadfastly refuses to budge. The one that sticks in my mind is when she refuses to drop Starfleet principles when the ship is in "The Void." In that case, she was right and managed to escape by making friends instead of raiding other ships.

Oh, she also listened to her crew when they suggested that they ally themselves with the Trabe in "Alliances," which turned out to be a terrible mistake. Sometimes, the captain just might be right to ignore the crew's advice!
You might be right AuntKate, that was just my recollection from watching Voyager when it was being broadcast and upon buying the DVD boxsets a couple of years ago. Hopefully, this rewatch will change and inform my opinion.

But I do think that Janeway was more isolated in her decision making, yes she was challenged on occassion and sometimes bowed to those suggestions. However, I might be wrong, but she seemed to do it less so than either Kirk, Picard or Sisko before her.

Kirk often sought the opinions of Spock, McCoy and Scotty, an on occassions when he went off on his own, especially "Obsession", it was viewed to be the incorrect course of action. I would have liked to see more of this from Janeway, but I suppose TPTB thought it would weaken her, the first "main" female captain in Trek. A real pity.
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Old June 27 2011, 05:27 PM   #171
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

As you rewatch the series, be aware of the fact that many of her "adjustments" do not happen on screen--and realize that those changes may very well be a result of consultation with her crew. An example of this is the cooperative approach she and Chakotay use to anticipate problems with Seven in "Scorpion, Part 2." It happens during the commercial break. Another example is from "Equinox, Part 2," after she sends Chakotay to his quarters. She finally agrees to contact the aliens who provided the method of calling the aliens that Ransom used to power his ship. It's by dealing with them directly--exactly what Chakotay had been proposing--that she is able to save the ship. Again, this change happens off screen.

I don't know why the writers didn't show these collaborations on screen, but I suspect that they were not "exciting" enough. I often felt that the episodes had barely enough time to be well presented in the 42 minutes that are available in an hour-long program. I personally think "Shattered" offers us the clearest view of Janeway's management style, because we see her and Chakotay talking things through as they try to restore the ship. There is this conversation, for example:

CHAKOTAY: I suggest we take a page from your rule book. We try diplomacy.
JANEWAY: Fine, but the next page in that book says that when diplomacy fails, we need a backup plan.
CHAKOTAY: Something tells me you already have one.

While I am mildly disappointed to see fans repeat the oft-stated (overstated?) claim that Janeway is arrogant, overly confident, and isolated, I am truly dismayed when PB writers echo those sentiments. I think, like you, all of them need to rewatch the series after taking off their "blinders."
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Old June 27 2011, 05:58 PM   #172
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

I'll definitely be keeping an open mind during the rewatch. Already, Janeway is rising in my estimation and I even have an example of her attitude being readjusted by Kes in "Eye of the Needle" when she insists that the Doctor is just a hologram and not a living being.

I hope to find other examples as I continue on. The more I watch though, the more I'm starting to see some comparisons between Janeway and Kirk. That's can't be a bad thing.

As for the writers have the view of Janeway as being arrogant, I agree that while some do, most notably Peter David in Before Dishonor, others deal with her very well. Although Janeway isn't present in the relaunch novels by Kirsten Beyer (excluding Full Circle) her presence is clearly there in the hearts, souls and thoughts of the others.
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Old June 27 2011, 07:18 PM   #173
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

bok2384 wrote: View Post
I'll definitely be keeping an open mind during the rewatch. Already, Janeway is rising in my estimation and I even have an example of her attitude being readjusted by Kes in "Eye of the Needle" when she insists that the Doctor is just a hologram and not a living being.
Which won't be the last time that Janeway is forced to question her prejudices concerning the Doctor and readjust her thinking.
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Old June 27 2011, 11:22 PM   #174
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

[QUOTE=bok2384;5062554]
AuntKate wrote: View Post
bok2384 wrote: View Post

That happened in "Equinox, Part II."

In "Scorpion, Part II," she listens to Chakotay and sets up contingency plans in case Seven actually tries to betray them. That's why Chakotay is "hooked up" and waiting for her to delare "Scorpion." So, in that episode, she listens, too, but the changes happen off screen.

I don't understand why Janeway is "labeled" as a captain who doesn't listen to her crew, when she does, many times. It seems to me that people just don't pay very close attention to Janeway's actions, or perhaps just don't remember those times because they are more impressed by the other times when she steadfastly refuses to budge. The one that sticks in my mind is when she refuses to drop Starfleet principles when the ship is in "The Void." In that case, she was right and managed to escape by making friends instead of raiding other ships.

Oh, she also listened to her crew when they suggested that they ally themselves with the Trabe in "Alliances," which turned out to be a terrible mistake. Sometimes, the captain just might be right to ignore the crew's advice!
You might be right AuntKate, that was just my recollection from watching Voyager when it was being broadcast and upon buying the DVD boxsets a couple of years ago. Hopefully, this rewatch will change and inform my opinion.

But I do think that Janeway was more isolated in her decision making, yes she was challenged on occassion and sometimes bowed to those suggestions. However, I might be wrong, but she seemed to do it less so than either Kirk, Picard or Sisko before her.

Kirk often sought the opinions of Spock, McCoy and Scotty, an on occassions when he went off on his own, especially "Obsession", it was viewed to be the incorrect course of action. I would have liked to see more of this from Janeway, but I suppose TPTB thought it would weaken her, the first "main" female captain in Trek. A real pity.
Another person Janeway relied on for counsel is Tuvok. In fact, one interesting dynamic of the series is the tension between Tuvok who had known Janeway for years and Chakotay who Janeway was just starting to rely on. You can see this played out a bit in "Basics".
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Old June 28 2011, 12:30 AM   #175
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
bok2384 wrote: View Post
I'll definitely be keeping an open mind during the rewatch. Already, Janeway is rising in my estimation and I even have an example of her attitude being readjusted by Kes in "Eye of the Needle" when she insists that the Doctor is just a hologram and not a living being.
Which won't be the last time that Janeway is forced to question her prejudices concerning the Doctor and readjust her thinking.
True. She and THE REST OF THE CREW tried to save him from a guilt feedback loop that threatened to disable his program by erasing certain problematic memories. In this case, she once again listened to criticism, this time from Seven, and decided to try another solution. In fact, she personally assisted him as he tried to work through the problem ("Latent Image").

She also treated him like a real person, probably more often. She lets him be "sent" to earth in order to help his creator, Dr. Zimmerman, recover from what was thought to be a fatal illness, even though there was a chance he wouldn't be able to return ("Lifeline"). She was almost too easy on him when he betrayed them to the photonic rebels in "Flesh and Blood" because she felt equally responsible for having provided the Hirogen with a holographic technology. And, she was willing to let him stay behind "for love" in "Virtuoso." To me, these are very significant actions on her part and shouldn't be overlooked.

It's easy to fall into a negative Janeway attitude if you pick and choose certain episodes and fail to look at the entire series. Ignoring the positive things she does is really unfair to the character. In the case of the EMH, in the long run, Janeway eventually treats him the same as she does her "flesh and blood" crew, even passionately defending his rights as a writer in "Author, Author."
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Old June 28 2011, 01:43 AM   #176
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

The problem with the character of Janeway is not that she "didn't listen." She did -- sometimes. And she also didn't -- sometimes.

The real problem with the Janeway character was that she was inconsistently-written. Her motivations and values would change from episode to episode, without any particular dramatic purpose or context. Her character -- like most of VOY's characters -- was fundamentally arbitrary, because the writing and characterization on VOY was fundamentally arbitrary. It's like Robert Duncan McNeil has said -- the attitude that the highest-up producers had was that the ship was the star, not the characters.
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Old June 28 2011, 02:19 AM   #177
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

^ I think all the characters had inconsistent writing in the show. There was also little feeling of effect or impact from previous events. The crew couldn't have off screen shore leave and drydock visits between episodes like in TNG. Sometimes it felt like every week the characters were different and uneffected by personal developments. A failing which the books have fixed.
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Old June 28 2011, 05:04 AM   #178
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
^ I think all the characters had inconsistent writing in the show. There was also little feeling of effect or impact from previous events. The crew couldn't have off screen shore leave and drydock visits between episodes like in TNG. Sometimes it felt like every week the characters were different and uneffected by personal developments. A failing which the books have fixed.
This may be true in the most recent novels by Beyer. Otherwise, I'd have to disagree about the books "fixing" the characters.
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Old June 28 2011, 07:13 PM   #179
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

Finally finished reading both the book and this crazy thread. Overall, I really enjoyed the book.

I especially loved the way Kirsten wrote the O'Donnell/Fife stuff. Starting out, I really felt like Fife was in the right, and O'Donnell was the one who needed to be taken out. Then, slowly, Kirsten gave us more of a window into both of their thought processes, and brought us to the point where Fife was obviously the one in the wrong. It was a smooth, book-long transition that really worked for me.

My main mark against the book is Eden's function aboard Voyager. I cringed every time I saw her give orders to Voyager's crew regarding the running of the ship - the job of the ship's captain if ever there was one. The worst example (but not the only one) was in chapter 25: "Mister Paris, the bridge is yours. Captain Chakotay, with me, please." ... Shouldn't the Captain of the ship decide who is running it when he's not on the bridge? This could be chalked up to the fact that, until recently, Eden was the captain of the ship, but it was still out of place for me. The reason I gripe about it is because I felt like Chakotay was marginalized in the book. He should be in charge of his ship, and I felt like he instead spent most of this book as just Eden's sounding board/conscience/rival/whatever, as he was for Janeway in most of Voyager's run. Reducing him back to that role is a step backwards for the character, in my opinion.
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Old June 28 2011, 10:21 PM   #180
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager: Children Of The Storm Review Thread

Quick question- do we know what year this takes place in? And also, is is set before or after the Typon Pact miniseries?
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