RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,702
Posts: 5,431,602
Members: 24,833
Currently online: 413
Newest member: PlainSimplGarak


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 18 2011, 05:17 AM   #31
Mojochi
Commodore
 
Mojochi's Avatar
 
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

Assimilation or annihilation is the declaration of the Borg, which equates to being slavery or death. By that definition the Federation's stand point is that a state of war exists, and will always exist, so long as that is the Borg goal.

Declarations have been made to support that position. Whether the Borg understood them as such, or recognize their own actions as hostile is well... irrelevant.

Both sides understand that the Federation will not willingly comply with Borg demands, and that violent offensive and defensive tactics will be employed against one another, in order to prevent the opposing combatant from achieving their goals. That folks, is war, even if it goes cold once in a while

The problem is that the Federation or at least some in it, are rather unwilling to do what's necessary to win a war like that. Unlike all other wars they have fought, there is only one tactic that can be foremost.

Destroy them, before they can destroy you, unless Guinan's got some brilliant plan to strike up an accord with them, like she postulated might someday be possible, when her & Picard spoke at the end of Q-Who

Otherwise, you do everything you can to destroy as many of them that is necessary to change their goal, and in this case, that may be all of them
Mojochi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 18 2011, 06:16 AM   #32
Wingsley
Commodore
 
Wingsley's Avatar
 
Location: Wingsley
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

There are several overlapping issues that have been touched upon in this thread. It's like trying to unravel a ball of yarn. Careful! You'll wind up like a kitty getting rolled into it.

Tracing back how the Borg were originally defined to us:

Guinan told Picard that the Borg were a conglomeration "of biological and artificial life that has been evolving for thousands of centuries". How Guinan came to know this is unclear, but if we are to accept this basic premise as the foundation, something does become clear: the Borg have existed the same Galaxy as Earth and the Federation for at least a quarter-million years and possibly longer. Guinan also told Picard that the Borg "swarmed through our system" and destroyed the civilization on her homeworld.

After Q's encounter at J-25 had been broken off, Guinan also told Picard that Q introduced the Borg to the Federation at a time long before the Federation was ready, and "for now, for right now, you're just raw material to them", but she also said that the Federation could establish a relationship with the Borg once they were prepared.

Consider a comparison between Gomtuu (TNG's "Tin Man") and the Borg. Both a Borg collective and the Gomtuu space vessel appear to be some form of "living" space vessels. Both are capable of hostile acts that a Federation starship captain cannot reliably anticipate, diffuse or defend against. (Witness what happened to the Romulans.)

Of course, the Borg are "bad guys". They are mean as mean can be. But also consider this: another important difference is that Gomtuu, to our knowledge, had no history of aggressive violence. Sure, it could be provoked into destroying a Romulan Warbird or crippling the Enterprise-D. And Gomtuu's moves were obviously not logical to Picard. The Federation could easily regard Gomtuu as a threat. Would Starfleet put an all-points bulletin out for starships to avoid, or even to take defensive action regarding Gomtuu? Not likely. Gomtuu would be seen as a potential threat, but also as a first-contact mission. Starfleet would want to assume a risk.

Same with Species "8472". These aliens might seem like a super-threat even worse than the Borg, since a fleet of their bio-ships is capable of Death Starring a whole planet. And, like the Borg, 8472's actions are clearly trending to the aggressive end of the scale. Does the Federation regard them as a threat? Sure. But they are not a direct one.

But the Borg have attacked Federation starships and allied colonies and installations. They tried to invade Earth twice, and have assimilated Federation citizens (presumably by the thousands, perhaps more). Surely, the Borg deserve an even stronger response, do they not?

Indeed they do, but consider this as well: the Borg have been in existence for at least a quarter, maybe a half-million years or more. If they had been so aggressive from their very beginning, openly marauding the Galaxy for all those "thousands of centuries", then it's safe to assume that there would not be anything left for the Federation to explore.

Clearly there is a Galaxy to explore, and therein lies an undefined issue with the Borg. Have they always been so violent? If they had, then the Galaxy would already be overwhelmed by them. Clearly, there are unknown aspects to Borg behavior. Do they go through periods of violent aggression for some unknown reason, only to stop at times and become peaceful? Or were the Borg once peaceful/docile, and something happened to change them? Guinan seemed to think that the Federation and the Borg would eventually have a peaceful relationship. Could it be that the Borg have encountered other distant powers who have/had a relationship with the collective, and causing the collective to set aside their violent behavior? Or did the Borg only acquire sufficient technology to travel through deep space only recently, with nearly all of their long history being confined to a single planet or sector of isolated space?

Looking at the Borg from this perspective probably gave the Federation leadership reason to pursue a more cautious path. The Borg are not a conventional military threat. Therefore, they defy conventional military and diplomatic thinking. As Q pointed out "you can't destroy them." And even if you could infect thousands of their ships with a computer virus, you can never be certain that the virus reached all of them (some may be out of range) or that the Borg will find some way to adapt. (Surely their collective cyber-consciousness network has built-in security countermeasures.)

So maybe the notion of "let's declare war on the Borg" would be seen in the same light as "let's declare war on Species 8472", or "let's declare war on Gomtuu". Such a move would be seen as Quixotic and even counter-productive.

The bottom line is this: it's never wise to declare war on an adversary unless you have a clear strategy that leads to victory, and you're willing to deal with the aftermath. Just ask Hitler and Tojo how that works out.

There's also the old saying "Your enemies of today will be your friends of tomorrow", in other words, before you go getting into a fight with that guy at the corner bar and you decide you're going to go all-out and break his arm to teach him a lesson, you might want to consider the consequences of all-out warfare. Maybe it's best not to break the guy's arm. If you avoid him, he won't be likely to try to smack a pool cue over your head.
__________________
"The way that you wander is the way that you choose. / The day that you tarry is the day that you lose. / Sunshine or thunder, a man will always wonder / Where the fair wind blows ..."
-- Lyrics, Jeremiah Johnson's theme.

Last edited by Wingsley; June 18 2011 at 06:19 AM. Reason: typo correction
Wingsley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 18 2011, 08:06 AM   #33
Kelthaz
Rear Admiral
 
Kelthaz's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

I think this debate is a little too focused on semantics. Is it possible for the Federation to technically be at war with a "race" that has no government? If they are at war, is it a cold war or a normal war? Interesting questions, but ultimately irrelevant. War is a term used to describe a military force fighting another military force. The Borg are a force of billions (maybe trillions?) with the objective of genocide against the Federation. The Borg have a military. The Borg and Federation have had military conflicts. For all intents and purposes the Federation is at war with the Borg.

Is the Federation still at war with the Borg? Yes. Wars can't expire and aren't dependent on casualties. There was the Three Hundred and Thirty Five Years' War between the Netherlands and the Isles of Scilly without a single shot fired. Not to mention the Korean War which is currently at 60 years and counting.
__________________
"Who are you?! And how did you get in here?!"

"I'm the locksmith. And... I'm the locksmith."
Kelthaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 18 2011, 12:53 PM   #34
Ensign_Redshirt
Commodore
 
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

I doubt that either side cared much about formal declarations of war here. To paraphrase the Borg: "Declarations of war are irrelevant. You will be assimilated." And when your opponent doesn't care why should the Federation council?

I would also like to point out that formal states of war (and/or declarations of war) have been increasingly become irrelevant in the real world since World War II. For instance, the period between 1941 and 1945 was the last time the United States had been officially at war. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (both times), and Afghanistan were merely prolonged cases of "military action" without actually declaring war on anyone. On the other hand, North Korea and South Korea have been in a continuous state of war since 1950, with a mere cease-fire being in place for most of the time between 1953 and 2011.

The bottomline is, whenever the Federation encountered a Borg ship, they tried to open fire on it (and the other way around). At the very least, I'd call that a de facto state of war. The only limiting factor is that the core territories of both opponents were separated by 50,000 light-years or so. As result, fights occured only sproadically with very long break between individual battles.
Ensign_Redshirt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 20 2011, 09:34 AM   #35
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
For instance, the period between 1941 and 1945 was the last time the United States had been officially at war. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (both times), and Afghanistan were merely prolonged cases of "military action" without actually declaring war on anyone.
Congressional authorizations for military action in Iraq (first gulf war) was Joint Resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 on January 14, 1991, "Operation Desert Storm."

Congressional authorizations for military action in Afghanistan was House Joint Resolution 64 and Senate Joint Resolution 23, Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists, Public Law 107-40, voted in by the US Congress on September 14, 2001.

Congressional authorizations for military action in Iraq (second gulf war) was on October 16, 2002, Operation Iraqi Freedom.

The Constitution gives Congress the power to authorized war, but doesn't require specific language. The words "declaration of war," do not have to appear on the resolution.

T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 20 2011, 01:40 PM   #36
antiquityscion
Commander
 
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

Even without a government authorization, Starfleet was at war.
Agreed

Now the question is not whether or not genocide is justified
La Forge's computer virus would have shutdown the Borg's neural network, disconnect the interconnects that form the collective. Geordie was going to make all the Borg individuals again. Many would likely die as a result, either through shock, artificial organs shutting down or by being trapped in dead spacecraft. But would that have constituted "genocide"

When you come right down to it, the Borg are nothing more than a large group of slaves. The collective really makes no decisions, because if it did, the first decision it would make is "let us go."

Genocide means killing a people (various descriptions), the Borg aren't a people are they?
Actually, as evidenced later in Voyager, not all Borg would have died. There are multiple examples of Borgs being disconnected from the collective and reverting back to their natural state. Which leads to the next point: the Borg are not a race. Society, perhaps, but they are not a race. Therefore it cannot be considered genocide.If Picard allowed the release of the virus, what would have happened would in fact, have been liberation for those captured borg.

Also, I think Picard was being a bit hypocritical. I find it odd that on one hand, when he has the means to release borg from captivity, it is called genocide, but when one of his crewmen was infected with the borg nanovirus in FC, Picard shot him as he was assimilated. By that rationale, that was murder.

After [Best of Both Worlds], however, do you believe a state of war still exists?
Based upon Picard's "we fall back" speech in FC, yes. And off screen, the Federation is slowly and gradually losing.
Again, I agree.

By that point, the borg attempted invasion of sector 001 twice. When the borg from FC awoke in the past, they attempted to rejoin the borg in the delta quadrant in an attempt to bring a thrid (or first) invasion force. In fact, this could be argued how the borg were tipped off to Earth, and I have even read that ENterprise had a planned origin story for the Borg queen in mind, based on the ENterprise borg episode.

Not to mention the events of Voyager clearly show there was a state of war, in that the Borg were constantly trying to assimilate or destroy Voyager, whenever contact was made. Indeed, in Endgame, what do you think the bog were intent on doing, if the fleet had not been there to greet them? They would have captured or destroyed Voyager for sure, and armed with the intelligence of voyager, they could have laid down plans for a third and final invasion.

However, it is very possible that (if you only go by on-screen), that the borg were destroyed by the same or similar virus, when future Admiral Janeway was assimilated, which stopped the Queen and may have possibly finally did what Picard should have done in I, Borg.
antiquityscion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 22 2011, 12:43 PM   #37
Jetboogieman
Lieutenant
 
Jetboogieman's Avatar
 
Location: Deep space 69
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

Well... all in all, while I enjoy the borg episodes and First Contact, the entire Borg - Federation conflict in fictional reality is entirely unrealistic.

I mean if the Borg really wanted to destroy the federation, they could send like, 1000 cubes to do the job, they could take out the Cardassians, the Federation, the klingons and the Romulans... Hell I bet even 100 cubes could do the job.

But no, they send one cube.

One.

Because they hate the Federation, OH SO MUCH.

Especially when it was discovered in End Game they could create a portal to within pissing distance of Earth...

One Cube.
__________________
Don't try to be a great man, just be a man, and let history make it's own judgement - Zefram Cochrane
Jetboogieman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 22 2011, 05:17 PM   #38
USS Excelsior
Commodore
 
USS Excelsior's Avatar
 
Location: Alpha Quadrant
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

Genocide would have been Beverly's earlier suggestion of using nanites......
USS Excelsior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 22 2011, 09:54 PM   #39
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Is it possible for the Federation to technically be at war with a "race" that has no government?
The Queens are the Borg government, a dictatorship.
T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2011, 12:17 AM   #40
Mr Silver
Rear Admiral
 
Location: UK
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

USS Excelsior wrote: View Post
Genocide would have been Beverly's earlier suggestion of using nanites......
But then again, all effective methods of defense against the Borg could be considered genocide. Its the circumstances that necessitated drastic methods. The federation had no real defences and faced a very real threat of extinction (in the sense of being individuals) from the Borg. It was one of those situations where they had to fight back with as much force as necessary.
Mr Silver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 24 2011, 07:45 PM   #41
TheLobes
Commander
 
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

I think you could say the federation were at war with the borg in the same way that humanity is currently 'at war' with AIDs.
TheLobes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2011, 06:19 AM   #42
Robert DeSoto
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

Archduk3 wrote: View Post
Hey, DeSoto, I'm fraking here too. Try not to let the walls of your little internet world hit you as they come crashing down. Also, learn to read, and take a few debate classes at your local high school, since it seems you never finished with it.

K THX BYE!
hey Archduk! didnt kno u were here! welcome! glad u made time for us with your busy MA schedule

we can drop the personal shit and have a real debate here where you have no admin powers. most ppl here, (so far), seem to agree that the Federation is at war (or at least a cold war). But I welcome you to come here and change our minds.
Robert DeSoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2011, 06:30 AM   #43
Cakemixo
Lieutenant
 
Cakemixo's Avatar
 
Location: Midway Up The Ceiling
Re: The Federation at war with the Borg?

Captain M wrote: View Post
USS Excelsior wrote: View Post
Genocide would have been Beverly's earlier suggestion of using nanites......
But then again, all effective methods of defense against the Borg could be considered genocide. Its the circumstances that necessitated drastic methods. The federation had no real defences and faced a very real threat of extinction (in the sense of being individuals) from the Borg. It was one of those situations where they had to fight back with as much force as necessary.
Shock and awe is irrelevent for the borg. Genocide may be the only way to effectivly stop them.
Cakemixo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
borg

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:55 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.