The Federation at war with the Borg? - Page 2

Gary7 · June 14 2011, 04:13 PM

If I had the command decision, I would have introduced the virus to destroy the Borg. Simply put, the Borg were hell bent on taking over the Federation. Their "assimilate at will" attitude does not leave any room for discussion. The only way to have peace with the Borg is to either be stronger and nano-probe invasion proof, or be inconsequential enough not to beckon their interest. If you're stronger, do you sit back and watch your weaker allies fall into Borg subjugation? I think not.

The Borg are a fascinating experiment in cyborg technology. If they had an "assimilate upon request" edict instead, perhaps it would be fine to work with them. Actually, THAT is the kind of virus I'd like to see introduced. The Borg shift into an assimilate when permitted stance and are no longer overtly hostile. And, they would also be staunch protectors of their allies, assuming a deadly invasion force ever comes about (like The Dominion).

T'Girl · June 14 2011, 06:46 PM

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

Those can be done already.

When did we see a Starfleet vessel fire on a Borg ship without there first being communication?

Mr. Laser Beam · June 14 2011, 07:29 PM

The Borg are always the first ones to communicate. "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile." Any time anyone gets within range, they always hear that. Nobody ever has to hail the Borg, they always do it first.

Bonzo the Fifth · June 14 2011, 07:58 PM

Not to mention that the Borg, in many ways, can be considered less a civilization and more extensions of a single being. You don't 'declare war' on an individual. If a landing party comes under fire on a planet, they can take all reasonable means to protect themselves, including deadly force, if necessary.

It just so happens that the Borg, due to their nature, are both an individual threat and an extremely hostile one.

Honestly, Geordi's virus was likely the most HUMANE solution available at the time of 'I Borg', since not everyone would have been as easily 'recovered' as Picard was by surgical means, and, even if they were, the logistics would have been far too daunting to even attempt to manually liberate one ship, much less the entire race.

And when you consider the possibilities of other races assimilated in the meantime while the question is dithered upon, which is the greater crime against sentience, really?

I hate when the question of genocide comes up in these debates. I hate it when it comes up in Doctor Who vis a vis the Daleks... Genocide is one thing when we're talking about a society of individuals who pose no harm to you or the slaughtering of the innocent or murdering people for the crime of being different. But if their very nature is to murder, to kill, and there's not way to placate or reason with them beyond catering to that intent, then diplomacy and ethics do not apply here. You're not dealing with a sentient civilization, then, but a force of nature. Are those innocents slaughtered in the meantime somehow lesser than the ravening, rampaging civilization that's destroying them?

Absolutely, take every measure to avoid the eventuality of destroying them all, if some or all can be saved, but there comes a point where you have to decide who has a greater right to live...

But as I said regarding the Daleks, I do find it tiresome that SF tends to almost always have one of these civilizations merely to spark a false debate on the rights to life of things that have no business living. It doesn't even have a parallel on earth. There's never been a modern human civilization so bloodthirsty that they were at war with everyone, all the time, where no negotiation was possible... Even the go-to society for Evil Civs, Nazi Germany, wasn't THAT bad, and had they been, I'm pretty sure the entire German nation would have been so much nuclear slag by the end of the war.

The fact is, REAL civilizations are comprised of several different kinds of people. Those who support action, those who don't, some who want a third way, etc. Cultures and civilizations deserve the greatest respect and consideration by others while the more hostile parts of them should be worn down through diplomacy so that we can all get along.

The Borg are not a civilization. They are an imposed monoculture, with no variation, and our rules of war, negotiation and ethics do not apply to them.

I know that sounds extreme, but I don't see any way around it.

Robert DeSoto · June 16 2011, 06:41 AM

so it seems nearly every agrees that a war exists at least on some level.

The reason I brought it up was because I had the same debate with one of the admins over at memory alpha. He raised some valid points at first (same as Dr. Crusher's arguments), but just like in I Borg, I shot down those points. Unlike Crusher, who eventually conceded that they were in fact at war, the admin just kinda went off the deep end, rambling on something about a Janeway-Chakotay war. Anyway he also said a state of war and a war is not the same thing. Then he posted a wiki definition for "state of war" which totally did not help his argument at all. Quite the opposite. Then he said that no war can exist without a declaration of war. (The reason why I brought up the war on terror was the admin said that no US citizen can consider themselves at war without Congress declaring war.) So ya I told him to try telling that to some Iraq/Korean/Vietnam war vets lol.

Anyway, I pointed out to him, that a bunch of random fans here seem to agree with me, but ya, he was not coming back from the deep end. Him being an admin of course, he can write whatever he wants on memory alpha and lock it.

After checking his profile tho, I can understand. He has edits and posts, every 90 seconds. I don't think this guy has a life. or a job. I dont even kno if he sleeps. Maybe hes an andriod or something lol. I mean we have some pretty crazy fans here too, but 90 secs? like his edits would be literally 1 min and a half after I post something. No matter what article I write in or what day or time.

I dont really care what article says. Or if I win or lose. I just like to debate shit. But I can picture some crazy guy with a long beard sitting in a basement editing memory alpha all day lol. Probably a loner with some serious OCD issues. The kind of guy that would snap and go on shooting spree. So if editing memory alpha will prevent this loner from going crazy, by all means, edit the shit out of my article lol

I'll just continue my debates here. (Although I know we have some crazies up in here too lol).

Mr. Laser Beam · June 16 2011, 06:58 AM

Bonzo the Fifth wrote:

There's never been a modern human civilization so bloodthirsty that they were at war with everyone, all the time, where no negotiation was possible...

Oakland Raiders fans?

Archduk3 · June 16 2011, 07:27 AM

Hey, DeSoto, I'm fraking here too. Try not to let the walls of your little internet world hit you as they come crashing down. Also, learn to read, and take a few debate classes at your local high school, since it seems you never finished with it.

K THX BYE!

Cakemixo · June 16 2011, 09:12 AM

I wouldn't call it a war. With the exception of what Geordi made, the Federation doesn't appear to take any offensive moves against the Borg. They are all defensive.

Cakemixo · June 16 2011, 09:12 AM

Double post. Sorry.

Cid Highwind · June 16 2011, 09:13 AM

To put those accusations against Memory Alpha into some sort of perspective - this is not really about some innocent user vs. a power-hungry administrator who just luvs to bully people.

What that debate started out as was a simple suggestion to merge two of our articles into one: the articles Federation-Borg War and Human-Borg history. I think it's pretty plain to see the major overlap in article focus here. While several users agreed with this suggested action, RdS did not and caused some ruckus on the discussion page. It was at this time that, additionally, the difference between minor-case "war" (as in "the two guys were having a war in the forum") and major-case "War" (as part of a proper name as in "the American War of Independence") was brought up, but apparently never understood by one of the discussion participants.

Long story short - the articles were eventually merged with majority consensus, which made the disagreeing user go ballistic. Since he has now admitted, here, that "debating shit" is more important to him than any eventual article content, we will have an eye on him in the future.

Holdfast · June 16 2011, 03:39 PM

Robert DeSoto wrote:

so it seems nearly every agrees that a war exists at least on some level.

The reason I brought it up was because I had the same debate with one of the admins over at memory alpha. He raised some valid points at first (same as Dr. Crusher's arguments), but just like in I Borg, I shot down those points. Unlike Crusher, who eventually conceded that they were in fact at war, the admin just kinda went off the deep end, rambling on something about a Janeway-Chakotay war. Anyway he also said a state of war and a war is not the same thing. Then he posted a wiki definition for "state of war" which totally did not help his argument at all. Quite the opposite. Then he said that no war can exist without a declaration of war. (The reason why I brought up the war on terror was the admin said that no US citizen can consider themselves at war without Congress declaring war.) So ya I told him to try telling that to some Iraq/Korean/Vietnam war vets lol.

Anyway, I pointed out to him, that a bunch of random fans here seem to agree with me, but ya, he was not coming back from the deep end. Him being an admin of course, he can write whatever he wants on memory alpha and lock it.

After checking his profile tho, I can understand. He has edits and posts, every 90 seconds. I don't think this guy has a life. or a job. I dont even kno if he sleeps. Maybe hes an andriod or something lol. I mean we have some pretty crazy fans here too, but 90 secs? like his edits would be literally 1 min and a half after I post something. No matter what article I write in or what day or time.

I dont really care what article says. Or if I win or lose. I just like to debate shit. But I can picture some crazy guy with a long beard sitting in a basement editing memory alpha all day lol. Probably a loner with some serious OCD issues. The kind of guy that would snap and go on shooting spree. So if editing memory alpha will prevent this loner from going crazy, by all means, edit the shit out of my article lol

I'll just continue my debates here. (Although I know we have some crazies up in here too lol).

The ranting about the off-board issues is completely off-topic.

If the person in question wasn't a member here (or had only reg'ed here to carry on the conflict), I'd probably leave things with a stern instruction not to drag off-board vendettas onto TBBS as it's basically empty spam with no relevance here.

But since the other party is a member here (with membership pre-dating your post above although he hasn't posted before), I'm going to count this as trolling rather than spamming, and warn for such.

Archduk3 wrote:

Hey, DeSoto, I'm fraking here too. Try not to let the walls of your little internet world hit you as they come crashing down. Also, learn to read, and take a few debate classes at your local high school, since it seems you never finished with it.

K THX BYE!

I strongly suggest not rising to the bait in future, and letting the mod notification system deal with this sort of issue. Warning for trolling him back.

Everyone: knock the personal crap off, and keep things on-topic.

Gary7 · June 16 2011, 10:21 PM

Vanyel · June 17 2011, 02:12 AM

When I started reading this thread this line kept coming to me.

Arturis: The Borg Collective is like a force of nature. You don't feel anger toward a storm on the horizon. You just avoid it.

The Borg are a force of nature, with a Queen who - IMO - is the personification of the Collective. You can't declare war against something that is doing the only thing it knows to do in order to survive

Hober Mallow · June 18 2011, 01:43 AM

BillJ wrote:

At best it could be termed a cold war. There were only the occasional flare-ups.

So you're saying the Borg are like my hemorrhoids?

Mr Silver · June 18 2011, 02:57 AM

I agree with BillJ, a "cold war" would be the most suitable term. The federation was never at a continual state of war with the Borg. Borg incursions were few and far between and usually resulted in one ship being dispatched to one area. Lets look at the Borg incursions

FC 2063: Borg travels back in time and fires up Bozeman, Montana. The Borg ship is swiftly destroyed and the Ent-E crew later succeed in preventing the Borg from damaging history and assimilating Earth.
Regeneration 2150's: Borg left over from the "first contact" incident awaken and acquire a ship, along with some new additions to their collective. They send a message to Borg space (which may or may not have reached them) and are promptly destroyed by the Enterprise.
TBOBW 2360's: The Borg send a ship to the Alpha Quadrant, destroy several outposts and assimilate Picard. They then destroy an entire armada of starfleet ships before being stopped just as they reach Earth
FC 2370's: Borg sends a ship to Earth, a fleet of ships along with the Ent-E destroy the Cube and the Ent-E follows the Sphere through a temporal rift to stop it.

Those are the only instances of direct assaults on starfleet and its territories. War isn't really a suitable word to use in this context. We can gather that the Borg were intrigued with the Alpha Quadrant and would plan methods to conquer it, but it never seemed as if it was a priority for them (otherwise they would have sent entire fleets of Cubes). In the federation's case, it was planning for a potential war with the Borg, but due to the threats from the Dominion, these plans were quickly put on hold.

June 14 2011, 04:13 PM	#16
Gary7 Rear Admiral Location: Near Manhattan ··· in an alternate reality	Re: The Federation at war with the Borg? If I had the command decision, I would have introduced the virus to destroy the Borg. Simply put, the Borg were hell bent on taking over the Federation. Their "assimilate at will" attitude does not leave any room for discussion. The only way to have peace with the Borg is to either be stronger and nano-probe invasion proof, or be inconsequential enough not to beckon their interest. If you're stronger, do you sit back and watch your weaker allies fall into Borg subjugation? I think not. The Borg are a fascinating experiment in cyborg technology. If they had an "assimilate upon request" edict instead, perhaps it would be fine to work with them. Actually, THAT is the kind of virus I'd like to see introduced. The Borg shift into an assimilate when permitted stance and are no longer overtly hostile. And, they would also be staunch protectors of their allies, assuming a deadly invasion force ever comes about (like The Dominion). __________________ Remembering Ensign Mallory.

June 14 2011, 07:29 PM	#18
Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Location: The visitor's bullpen	Re: The Federation at war with the Borg? The Borg are always the first ones to communicate. "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile." Any time anyone gets within range, they always hear that. Nobody ever has to hail the Borg, they always do it first. __________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

June 14 2011, 07:58 PM	#19
Bonzo the Fifth Commander Location: Portland, OR	Re: The Federation at war with the Borg? Not to mention that the Borg, in many ways, can be considered less a civilization and more extensions of a single being. You don't 'declare war' on an individual. If a landing party comes under fire on a planet, they can take all reasonable means to protect themselves, including deadly force, if necessary. It just so happens that the Borg, due to their nature, are both an individual threat and an extremely hostile one. Honestly, Geordi's virus was likely the most HUMANE solution available at the time of 'I Borg', since not everyone would have been as easily 'recovered' as Picard was by surgical means, and, even if they were, the logistics would have been far too daunting to even attempt to manually liberate one ship, much less the entire race. And when you consider the possibilities of other races assimilated in the meantime while the question is dithered upon, which is the greater crime against sentience, really? I hate when the question of genocide comes up in these debates. I hate it when it comes up in Doctor Who vis a vis the Daleks... Genocide is one thing when we're talking about a society of individuals who pose no harm to you or the slaughtering of the innocent or murdering people for the crime of being different. But if their very nature is to murder, to kill, and there's not way to placate or reason with them beyond catering to that intent, then diplomacy and ethics do not apply here. You're not dealing with a sentient civilization, then, but a force of nature. Are those innocents slaughtered in the meantime somehow lesser than the ravening, rampaging civilization that's destroying them? Absolutely, take every measure to avoid the eventuality of destroying them all, if some or all can be saved, but there comes a point where you have to decide who has a greater right to live... But as I said regarding the Daleks, I do find it tiresome that SF tends to almost always have one of these civilizations merely to spark a false debate on the rights to life of things that have no business living. It doesn't even have a parallel on earth. There's never been a modern human civilization so bloodthirsty that they were at war with everyone, all the time, where no negotiation was possible... Even the go-to society for Evil Civs, Nazi Germany, wasn't THAT bad, and had they been, I'm pretty sure the entire German nation would have been so much nuclear slag by the end of the war. The fact is, REAL civilizations are comprised of several different kinds of people. Those who support action, those who don't, some who want a third way, etc. Cultures and civilizations deserve the greatest respect and consideration by others while the more hostile parts of them should be worn down through diplomacy so that we can all get along. The Borg are not a civilization. They are an imposed monoculture, with no variation, and our rules of war, negotiation and ethics do not apply to them. I know that sounds extreme, but I don't see any way around it.

June 16 2011, 06:41 AM	#20
Robert DeSoto Lieutenant Commander	Re: The Federation at war with the Borg? so it seems nearly every agrees that a war exists at least on some level. The reason I brought it up was because I had the same debate with one of the admins over at memory alpha. He raised some valid points at first (same as Dr. Crusher's arguments), but just like in I Borg, I shot down those points. Unlike Crusher, who eventually conceded that they were in fact at war, the admin just kinda went off the deep end, rambling on something about a Janeway-Chakotay war. Anyway he also said a state of war and a war is not the same thing. Then he posted a wiki definition for "state of war" which totally did not help his argument at all. Quite the opposite. Then he said that no war can exist without a declaration of war. (The reason why I brought up the war on terror was the admin said that no US citizen can consider themselves at war without Congress declaring war.) So ya I told him to try telling that to some Iraq/Korean/Vietnam war vets lol. Anyway, I pointed out to him, that a bunch of random fans here seem to agree with me, but ya, he was not coming back from the deep end. Him being an admin of course, he can write whatever he wants on memory alpha and lock it. After checking his profile tho, I can understand. He has edits and posts, every 90 seconds. I don't think this guy has a life. or a job. I dont even kno if he sleeps. Maybe hes an andriod or something lol. I mean we have some pretty crazy fans here too, but 90 secs? like his edits would be literally 1 min and a half after I post something. No matter what article I write in or what day or time. I dont really care what article says. Or if I win or lose. I just like to debate shit. But I can picture some crazy guy with a long beard sitting in a basement editing memory alpha all day lol. Probably a loner with some serious OCD issues. The kind of guy that would snap and go on shooting spree. So if editing memory alpha will prevent this loner from going crazy, by all means, edit the shit out of my article lol I'll just continue my debates here. (Although I know we have some crazies up in here too lol).

June 16 2011, 07:27 AM	#22
Archduk3 Cadet	Re: The Federation at war with the Borg? Hey, DeSoto, I'm fraking here too. Try not to let the walls of your little internet world hit you as they come crashing down. Also, learn to read, and take a few debate classes at your local high school, since it seems you never finished with it. K THX BYE!

STAR TREK

CSI

ABOUT US

June 16 2011, 09:12 AM	#23
Cakemixo Lieutenant Location: Midway Up The Ceiling	Re: The Federation at war with the Borg? I wouldn't call it a war. With the exception of what Geordi made, the Federation doesn't appear to take any offensive moves against the Borg. They are all defensive.

June 16 2011, 09:13 AM	#25
Cid Highwind Fleet Captain Location: Germany	Re: The Federation at war with the Borg? To put those accusations against Memory Alpha into some sort of perspective - this is not really about some innocent user vs. a power-hungry administrator who just luvs to bully people. What that debate started out as was a simple suggestion to merge two of our articles into one: the articles Federation-Borg War and Human-Borg history. I think it's pretty plain to see the major overlap in article focus here. While several users agreed with this suggested action, RdS did not and caused some ruckus on the discussion page. It was at this time that, additionally, the difference between minor-case "war" (as in "the two guys were having a war in the forum") and major-case "War" (as part of a proper name as in "the American War of Independence") was brought up, but apparently never understood by one of the discussion participants. Long story short - the articles were eventually merged with majority consensus, which made the disagreeing user go ballistic. Since he has now admitted, here, that "debating shit" is more important to him than any eventual article content, we will have an eye on him in the future. __________________ The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one! -- Shran

June 16 2011, 10:21 PM	#27
Gary7 Rear Admiral Location: Near Manhattan ··· in an alternate reality	Re: The Federation at war with the Borg? __________________ Remembering Ensign Mallory.

June 18 2011, 02:57 AM	#30
Mr Silver Rear Admiral Location: UK	Re: The Federation at war with the Borg? I agree with BillJ, a "cold war" would be the most suitable term. The federation was never at a continual state of war with the Borg. Borg incursions were few and far between and usually resulted in one ship being dispatched to one area. Lets look at the Borg incursions FC 2063: Borg travels back in time and fires up Bozeman, Montana. The Borg ship is swiftly destroyed and the Ent-E crew later succeed in preventing the Borg from damaging history and assimilating Earth. Regeneration 2150's: Borg left over from the "first contact" incident awaken and acquire a ship, along with some new additions to their collective. They send a message to Borg space (which may or may not have reached them) and are promptly destroyed by the Enterprise. TBOBW 2360's: The Borg send a ship to the Alpha Quadrant, destroy several outposts and assimilate Picard. They then destroy an entire armada of starfleet ships before being stopped just as they reach Earth FC 2370's: Borg sends a ship to Earth, a fleet of ships along with the Ent-E destroy the Cube and the Ent-E follows the Sphere through a temporal rift to stop it. Those are the only instances of direct assaults on starfleet and its territories. War isn't really a suitable word to use in this context. We can gather that the Borg were intrigued with the Alpha Quadrant and would plan methods to conquer it, but it never seemed as if it was a priority for them (otherwise they would have sent entire fleets of Cubes). In the federation's case, it was planning for a potential war with the Borg, but due to the threats from the Dominion, these plans were quickly put on hold.