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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old May 19 2011, 05:09 AM   #121
Hober Mallow
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

GNDN wrote: View Post
^ But while spreading this rumor they also give credence to this long-standing misconception:

For a while, we heard that Paramount wasn’t planning to upgrade the modern Treks due to the high price tag involved (the series were filmed on video as opposed to film for TOS)
Too bad so few seem to understand the rather simple distinction between being mastered on videotape versus 'filmed' on tape.
Hehe, they're wrong twice there. Not only was TNG not filmed on video, it isn't even possible to "film" a show on video.
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Old May 19 2011, 05:23 AM   #122
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

RAMA wrote: View Post
Mr. B wrote: View Post
A 35mm film frame has the equivalent of 25-50 megapixels of usable information, which is about equivalent to a 4,500 line image, but Super Hi-Vision or something like it is at least 20 years from wide adoption
True, the point here is that the series need to be open to future upgrading.

Also, as the article says the best 35mm and HD are already roughly equivalent to human eyesight, because of the lines of res, anything else is just gravy..
I would agree with that. Personally I think an undertaking like this should be done at 4K resolution, the current digital cinema standard. It's not absurdly different than 1080p and would probably future-proof the work for 15 years. At that point 4K will probably be making its way into many homes and they can re-re-release it to cash in again, any maybe justify the extra expense at redoing the effects at a much higher resolution than HDTV... and in the short term you could do some theater screenings a la Fathom Events.
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Old May 19 2011, 07:37 AM   #123
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

Mr. B wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
Mr. B wrote: View Post
A 35mm film frame has the equivalent of 25-50 megapixels of usable information, which is about equivalent to a 4,500 line image, but Super Hi-Vision or something like it is at least 20 years from wide adoption
True, the point here is that the series need to be open to future upgrading.

Also, as the article says the best 35mm and HD are already roughly equivalent to human eyesight, because of the lines of res, anything else is just gravy..
I would agree with that. Personally I think an undertaking like this should be done at 4K resolution, the current digital cinema standard. It's not absurdly different than 1080p and would probably future-proof the work for 15 years. At that point 4K will probably be making its way into many homes and they can re-re-release it to cash in again, any maybe justify the extra expense at redoing the effects at a much higher resolution than HDTV... and in the short term you could do some theater screenings a la Fathom Events.
I do hope they scan the film at higher res, and edit it at higher res, but for the CG I'd rather them keep it at 1080p and worry about the next upgrade in 20 years when it's an issue again. If you double the dimensions, you've got 4x the pixels to render, which means roughly 4x the render times for the CG (probably slightly less). This means either more money spent on computers to render, which may mean money taken away from somewhere else, or they have to lower the CG render quality to compensate for the extended render times. Either way I'm seeing a sacrifice would have to be made somewhere, because I don't see CBS putting more money than they have to into this to future proof it when it's not an issue at this point in time.
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Old May 19 2011, 03:24 PM   #124
jefferiestubes8
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

Mr. B wrote: View Post
I think an undertaking like this should be done at 4K resolution, the current digital cinema standard. It's not absurdly different than 1080p and would probably future-proof the work for 15 years. At that point 4K will probably be making its way into many homes and they can re-re-release it to cash in again, any maybe justify the extra expense at redoing the effects at a much higher resolution than HDTV... and in the short term you could do some theater screenings a la Fathom Events.
I mentioned it in Future of Trek for the next Trek TV series:
next Trek series pilot in cinemas as double feature from Paramount?

and there was the double episode of TOS that got a special event at the cinema:
TOS "The Menagerie" in 2007 in cinemas

It's highly doubtful TNG-R would be anything more than pillarbox 1080p. Only major motion pictures get a 4k post production pipeline. Even highest rated current episodic TV series only get 1080p masters.
quick example of May 17 ratings (18-49 category) for previous week for dramas:
Glee FOX 3.7
NCIS CBS 3.5
Criminal Minds CBS 3.3
GREY’S ANATOMY ABC 3.2
all of these are mastered at 1080p.


Mr. B is correct in the additional render time and costs involved for 4K and that is only reserved for major motion pictures.
HDTVs now in 2011 only have penetration in North America of 60%. In 15 years there will not be a 33% (mainstream) of 4K televisions and cable/satellite delivery of 4K TV channels. By then TNG will be a 40 year old TV series. 1080p will be perfectly adequate for it.

BlobVanDam wrote: View Post
I don't see CBS putting more money than they have to into this to future proof it when it's not an issue at this point in time.
Very well said.
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Old May 20 2011, 01:35 AM   #125
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

Not to mention either that, even if a 4k undertaking were made 15 years from now, I'd much rather they use CGI FX from 2026 to enhance it than 2011 FX...

Just saying...

In any case, that's usually why most films will have SEVERAL remasterings over time, as digital processing technology improves and, more importantly, become cheaper. This is a natural part of the process, as new techniques come out, and old ones are refined and become less expensive, they're deployed over and over again against aging films, to squeeze every bit of quality out of them before the original film stock ages to a point that it's no longer in usable condition and it's lost forever.

By way of example, TOS has been remastered twice, now, hasn't it? If I recall correctly, back in the early 2000's when it first aired on the (then) SciFi channel, it had a quick and dirty remastering at that point, which looked better than most broadcast versions at the time, but was still fairly rough. Contrast with the more recent remastering, which is much more thorough and much better looking (I'm talking about live action film stuff, leaving aside any FX issues for the moment). Even so, I expect there will be another, even more comprehensive mastering at some point in the future, a decade or three down the line.

In any case, I have no doubt that, at some point in the future, TNG, DS9 and Voyager will all get their proper HD remasters and appropriate FX enhancements. The question is whether that time is now, or at some point later on. It would be nice to have it now, but I don't have a problem with waiting.

The good thing, regardless of when it happens, is that, when it does, I'm sure whoever supervises the remaster will definitely make sure to get a proper 35mm archival version of the series to ensure that all this extra work will not have to be gone through again in the future, should future, even more advanced remasters happen.
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Old May 20 2011, 02:54 PM   #126
jefferiestubes8
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TOS DVD

Bonzo the Fifth wrote: View Post
TOS has been remastered twice, now, hasn't it? If I recall correctly, back in the early 2000's
yes in 1999. telecined at 1080i.
for broadcast on the Sci-Fi Channel. Fully digital, high-definition transfers were done of all the episodes in the series, using the original film interpositives from the studio's vaults. Then, the D1 master tapes were "cleaned" using special digital filters to reduce the amount of dust and dirt visible. The result, on virtually every episode, is a crisp and vibrant picture, with terrific contrast and lush, accurate colors. The video isn't exactly reference quality. There's a lot of grain that shows on the print, which results in some artifacting and blotchiness after MPEG-2 compression. You'll also still see occasional dust and scratches on the film. And there's been some kind of digital edge enhancement applied to the video, because some of the edges seem unnaturally sharp
source

TOS and TNG are both very profitable properties for CBS.
DS9, VOY, and ENT are not in the same way.

I've seen VOY on a 46" HDTV that was being fed by a composite video signal and it looked good enough to my eyes.

TNG on the other hand had analog videotape masters for the first few seasons and looks awful compared to VOY from 1997.
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Old May 21 2011, 01:10 AM   #127
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

Food for thought...STNG made $500 MILLION from syndication fees, it made $90 million a YEAR in its original airing in advertising revenue, plus $70 million from licensing and affiliate station fees(according to California Business). This does not count merchandising or DVD sales (also $455 million from the movies, not counting merchandising or DVD/Bluray sales, add at least another $200-250 million to that figure). By itself in terms of the actual airing of the show, its beyond a billion $ industry...now how much do you think it would make from Netflix...Itunes....Bluray? There is no way this is not getting made...

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Old May 21 2011, 01:15 AM   #128
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
Mr. B wrote: View Post
I think an undertaking like this should be done at 4K resolution, the current digital cinema standard. It's not absurdly different than 1080p and would probably future-proof the work for 15 years. At that point 4K will probably be making its way into many homes and they can re-re-release it to cash in again, any maybe justify the extra expense at redoing the effects at a much higher resolution than HDTV... and in the short term you could do some theater screenings a la Fathom Events.
I mentioned it in Future of Trek for the next Trek TV series:
next Trek series pilot in cinemas as double feature from Paramount?

and there was the double episode of TOS that got a special event at the cinema:
TOS "The Menagerie" in 2007 in cinemas

Oh I LOVE this idea: BOBW in theaters with a remastering??? Instant best theatrical Star Trek movie! Also like the pilot idea for the next series...

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Old May 21 2011, 01:16 AM   #129
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

RAMA wrote: View Post
Food for thought...STNG made $500 MILLION from syndication fees, it made $90 million a YEAR in its original airing in advertising revenue, plus $70 million from licensing and affiliate station fees(according to California Business). This does not count merchandising or DVD sales (also $455 million from the movies, not counting merchandising or DVD/Bluray sales, add at least another $200-250 million to that figure). By itself in terms of the actual airing of the show, its beyond a billion $ industry...now how much do you think it would make from Netflix...Itunes....Bluray? There is no way this is not getting made...

RAMA
Since the entirety of the Netflix deal is for $200 million for many Paramount properties... I'd say not much.
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Old May 21 2011, 01:19 AM   #130
RAMA
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

BillJ wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
Food for thought...STNG made $500 MILLION from syndication fees, it made $90 million a YEAR in its original airing in advertising revenue, plus $70 million from licensing and affiliate station fees(according to California Business). This does not count merchandising or DVD sales (also $455 million from the movies, not counting merchandising or DVD/Bluray sales, add at least another $200-250 million to that figure). By itself in terms of the actual airing of the show, its beyond a billion $ industry...now how much do you think it would make from Netflix...Itunes....Bluray? There is no way this is not getting made...

RAMA
Since the entirety of the Netflix deal is for $200 million for many Paramount properties... I'd say not much.
That doesn't include remastered though does it! its only the current series. Then there is itunes and Bluray...

RAMA
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Old May 21 2011, 01:20 AM   #131
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

RAMA wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
Food for thought...STNG made $500 MILLION from syndication fees, it made $90 million a YEAR in its original airing in advertising revenue, plus $70 million from licensing and affiliate station fees(according to California Business). This does not count merchandising or DVD sales (also $455 million from the movies, not counting merchandising or DVD/Bluray sales, add at least another $200-250 million to that figure). By itself in terms of the actual airing of the show, its beyond a billion $ industry...now how much do you think it would make from Netflix...Itunes....Bluray? There is no way this is not getting made...

RAMA
Since the entirety of the Netflix deal is for $200 million for many Paramount properties... I'd say not much.
That doesn't include remastered though does it! its only the current series. Then there is itunes and Bluray...

RAMA
I'm just saying that the current Netflix deal doesn't seem to value any of the Trek properties all that highly. And if it is a go for the fall... I'd imagine it was already part of the negotiated deal.
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Old May 21 2011, 01:23 AM   #132
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

BillJ wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Since the entirety of the Netflix deal is for $200 million for many Paramount properties... I'd say not much.
That doesn't include remastered though does it! its only the current series. Then there is itunes and Bluray...

RAMA
I'm just saying that the current Netflix deal doesn't seem to value any of the Trek properties all that highly. And if it is a go for the fall... I'd imagine it was already part of the negotiated deal.
Oh CBS is pretty shrewd...the deal for TOS on Nick and TOS-R in syndication were separate for example....god I forgot the possible syndication rights for STNG-R...wow.

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Old May 21 2011, 01:28 AM   #133
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

RAMA wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post

That doesn't include remastered though does it! its only the current series. Then there is itunes and Bluray...

RAMA
I'm just saying that the current Netflix deal doesn't seem to value any of the Trek properties all that highly. And if it is a go for the fall... I'd imagine it was already part of the negotiated deal.
Oh CBS is pretty shrewd...the deal for TOS on Nick and TOS-R in syndication were separate for example....god I forgot the possible syndication rights for STNG-R...wow.

RAMA
I swear RAMA, sometimes I think you get a woody talking about this stuff.
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Old May 21 2011, 01:47 AM   #134
RAMA
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

BillJ wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

I'm just saying that the current Netflix deal doesn't seem to value any of the Trek properties all that highly. And if it is a go for the fall... I'd imagine it was already part of the negotiated deal.
Oh CBS is pretty shrewd...the deal for TOS on Nick and TOS-R in syndication were separate for example....god I forgot the possible syndication rights for STNG-R...wow.

RAMA
I swear RAMA, sometimes I think you get a woody talking about this stuff.
Damn, there's nothing like the thought of SOMEONE ELSE MAKING BILLIONS!

RAMA
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Old May 28 2011, 03:38 AM   #135
jefferiestubes8
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

It's been done before with polls from the official startrek.com website asking which episodes fans liked the most for the Fan Collective DVD sets:
Star Trek - Fan Collective: Borg
Star Trek Fan Collective - Time Travel
Star Trek Fan Collective - Captain's Log
Star Trek - Fan Collective: Q
Star Trek: Fan Collective - Klingon

now on that website's forum there are polls asking:
Best Season of TNG

Best TNG two-parter

Poll: Remastered TNG
Is it time to remaster TNG with improved special effects and space scenes yet?

It's possible from these polls some best of TNG Blu-ray would come out first instead of season 1's 25 episodes totalling 60 hours.
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