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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old May 4 2011, 09:08 AM   #121
Saquist
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Re: Constellation class

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
No he said "frequent use of high warp over the last few days." Nowhere does he say they maintained high warp factors for any amount of time, let alone days.
I know what he said. I'm the one that quoted him.

Indeed. Which is why Starfleet fudged the word "sustainable" for propaganda value. Everyone in Starfleet probably knows the subtext of that quotation, that the speed is only "sustainable" for about thirty seconds before the ship COMPLETELY EXPLODES from the strain. But outsiders--the Tal Shiar, for example--would have no way of knowing that.

Which may help to explain why Admiral Ross took the Bellerophon to Romulus in "Inter Arma." Clearly there's some diplomatic significance in sending your envoy on what your enemy believes is the fastest starship in the galaxy.
That's certainly one way to look at it.

That's supposition on your part. The only statement of FACT in that case comes from Tuvok:
"He's exceeding our Maximum velocity. Switching to long range sensors," seconds before Tom reports "Warp 9.95."
Of course is supposition. From the evidence the ship was shaking which is indicative of field fluctuations. The timing of the Tom's statement is questionable because of cut scenes.
Later in the same episode:
KIM: They're approaching warp nine point nine.
CHAKOTAY: Increase speed to match.
COMPUTER: Warning. Nearing maximum warp velocity. Structural collapse is imminent.

And warp 9.97, they are 45 seconds from structural collapse; Chakotay has them reduced to warp 9.5.
Bingo warp field instability

So canonically, both Tuvok and Voyager's computer state that MAXIMUM WARP is about 9.9. In the case of neither the shuttle nor Voyager is the warp core named as a reason why they can't maintain or exceed this velocity.
The computers said nearing.
and I never said that the warp core had to be reason why it merely was one of the possibilities thus it doesn't have to be explicitly stated to be true.


See above.
Your case is well made but it's still circumstantial and just doesn't come close to nailing the Warp 9.975 as unattainable for the class itself. The writers just don't think of everything, I have to make room for their error aswell. If they were infallible I'd be with on this one.

Also, in Starfleet's case it's hardly without precedent, especially where the Romulans are concerned. Kirk once lied to his entire crew just to give the Federation plausible deniability during the Enterprise Incident, Admiral Pressman lied to Starfleet to cover up the Phase Cloak device. Ben Sisko TOTALLY lied about not using the Defiant's cloaking device in the Alpha Quadrant, and he out-and-out lied to Vreenak to try and bring the Romulans into the Dominion War (he wasn't as pissed about lying to him as he was about Garrack ASSASSINATING him to make the lie plausible).
hmmm.

I find that whenever Starfleet starts doing things that seem sneaky or duplicitous, it usually has something to do with the Romulans. The presence of the Bellerephon in "Inter Arma" suggests to me that the Intrepid class was probably developed from the outset with Romulans in mind (not unlike, say, the F-22 Raptor, which was originally designed to counteract advanced Soviet fighters).
I'm just the opposite.
I think Voyager was developed for the DMZ and the Cardassian Border. Fast, powerful and agile and with an effective sensor range that could cover 15 lightyears.
But we'll likely never find out for sure on Voyagers true speed or it's primary use.
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Old May 5 2011, 05:54 AM   #122
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Constellation class

Saquist wrote: View Post
Of course is supposition. From the evidence the ship was shaking which is indicative of field fluctuations. The timing of the Tom's statement is questionable because of cut scenes.
It's not questionable at all. One event follows the other: Tuvok says "He's exceeding our maximum velocity" which is FOLLOWED by Tom saying "Warp nine point nine five!"

There's nothing questionable about that at all.

Bingo warp field instability
Which the COMPUTER seems to think is caused by the ship exceeding its maximum possible velocity. In other words, like every other ship in the fleet, Voyager cannot create a stable space warp above warp nine point nine.

The computers said nearing.
Specifically, the computer said "nearing maximum velocity." That is to say, the highest speed at which the engines are physically incapable of exceeding under any circumstances. Evidently, it cannot exceed this speed because any faster would cause them to immediately explode.

Your case is well made but it's still circumstantial and just doesn't come close to nailing the Warp 9.975 as unattainable for the class itself.
I have no doubt that that velocity is attainable. Just that attaining that velocity would result in the entire ship blowing itself to pieces a matter of seconds later. If that is what Starfleet means by "sustainable cruise velocity" then they are clearly lying to SOMEONE.

The writers just don't think of everything, I have to make room for their error aswell. If they were infallible I'd be with on this one.
In this case, the writers simply contradicted themselves by giving technology properties that never manifested when they were supposed to. It's alot like the "can't go to warp in a solar system" thing; they mention it from time to time, but ignore it more often than not.

"They fucked up" is a real-world explanation. The most logical in-universe one is that Starfleet fudged the Intrepid's specs to make the ship look faster than it is. They're not really lying as such, just exaggerating.

I think Voyager was developed for the DMZ and the Cardassian Border. Fast, powerful and agile and with an effective sensor range that could cover 15 lightyears.
I don't think so. By DS9, Starfleet was still using Excelsiors and Mirandas to patrol the DMZ. The more sophisticated and advanced ships in the fleet--the Enterprise-E, the Prometheus, the Steamrunners and Norways and even the Bellerophon--all seem to be clustered around either closer to Earth or within sprint range of the Romulan Neutral Zone. I don't think it can be underestimated how much the old Romulan/Federation Cold War must have rattled Starfleet's brass during TNG.
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Old May 5 2011, 03:13 PM   #123
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Re: Constellation class

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Specifically, the computer said "nearing maximum velocity." That is to say, the highest speed at which the engines are physically incapable of exceeding under any circumstances. Evidently, it cannot exceed this speed because any faster would cause them to immediately explode.
Check the dialogue again.

KIM: They're approaching Warp 9.9
CHAKOTAY: Increase speed to match.
COMPUTER: Warning. Nearing maximum velocity. Structural collapse is imminent.
CHAKOTAY: Are we in tractor range?
KIM: No. And they're still accelerating. Warp 9.97.
COMPUTER: Warning. At present speed, structural failure in 45 seconds.
CHAKOTAY: Reduce speed to Warp 9.5. Keep a sensor lock on them as long as you can

Voyager's "maximum velocity" was determined by the ship's structure (the computer's warning of structural failure). It has nothing to do with the engines. As far as we know, Voyager could have hit Warp 9.9999 accept there wouldn't be much left of the ship due to structural problems.

From the series:
  • Voyager has a stated top cruising speed of Warp 9.975
  • Voyager has not been able to exceed Warp 9.9 in the series due to structural issues that probably did not exist prior to the series (thus the higher top cruising speed.)
  • We have not seen a pre-series Voyager or another Intrepid-class attempt it's top cruising speed and fail
  • We have not seen any deliberate deception regarding warp speed capabilities

Last edited by blssdwlf; May 5 2011 at 03:49 PM.
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Old May 5 2011, 07:25 PM   #124
Timo
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Re: Constellation class

Voyager has not been able to exceed Warp 9.9 in the series due to structural issues that probably did not exist prior to the series (thus the higher top cruising speed.)
But again, "Threshold" is AFAIK the only episode that features a situation where the Voyager fails to attain high speed. Everywhere else, it's quite possible that Janeway's commands for "maximum warp" resulted in an effortlessly achieved warp 9.9992.

And as noted earlier, even "Threshold" never actually states that the ship would have failed to reach warp 9.975. It merely states that the ship faced destruction in little less than a minute if it continued to chase after a target that had accelerated from warp 9.9 to warp 9.97 in a matter of seconds. That is, we never learn what the structure-endangering "present speed" might have been.

For all we know, Chakotay could have slowed down to warp 9.985 and that would already have postponed the imminent disaster. But he chose to slow down to warp 9.5, because that made things even easier for the ship, and because there was absolutely no hope of actually pursuing the Cochrane no matter what speed the Voyager held.

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Old May 5 2011, 11:20 PM   #125
Saquist
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Re: Constellation class

Timo wrote: View Post
Voyager has not been able to exceed Warp 9.9 in the series due to structural issues that probably did not exist prior to the series (thus the higher top cruising speed.)
But again, "Threshold" is AFAIK the only episode that features a situation where the Voyager fails to attain high speed. Everywhere else, it's quite possible that Janeway's commands for "maximum warp" resulted in an effortlessly achieved warp 9.9992.

And as noted earlier, even "Threshold" never actually states that the ship would have failed to reach warp 9.975. It merely states that the ship faced destruction in little less than a minute if it continued to chase after a target that had accelerated from warp 9.9 to warp 9.97 in a matter of seconds. That is, we never learn what the structure-endangering "present speed" might have been.

For all we know, Chakotay could have slowed down to warp 9.985 and that would already have postponed the imminent disaster. But he chose to slow down to warp 9.5, because that made things even easier for the ship, and because there was absolutely no hope of actually pursuing the Cochrane no matter what speed the Voyager held.

Timo Saloniemi

I think that's the point that there was no hope of reaching or capturing the Cochrane.
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Old May 6 2011, 02:23 AM   #126
blssdwlf
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Re: Constellation class

Timo wrote: View Post
Voyager has not been able to exceed Warp 9.9 in the series due to structural issues that probably did not exist prior to the series (thus the higher top cruising speed.)
But again, "Threshold" is AFAIK the only episode that features a situation where the Voyager fails to attain high speed. Everywhere else, it's quite possible that Janeway's commands for "maximum warp" resulted in an effortlessly achieved warp 9.9992.
Maybe. Although it looks like "maximum warp" for Voyager actually became slower as time (and damage) went on...

e119 "The 37's" W9.9 = 21,457c
e207 "Maneuvers" W? = 6,667c
e212 "Threshold" W9.9
e321 "Scorpion" Max Warp = 2,920c ~5 days
e718 "Friendship One" Max Warp = 1,606c ~60 days

The last time they hit Warp 9.9 in dialogue appears to be in Season 2, "Threshold". Later references to maximum warp turn in numbers far slower than Warp 9.9 but still faster than Warp 9 (833c - "Bloodlines").

It could be several factors affecting Voyager's top speed though... time at max warp, structural integrity of ship, fuel conservation, dilithium status, subspace terrain, etc... My theory is still that the engines could cruise easily at Warp 9.975 but the hull's integrity got progressively worse and was the main limiting factor...
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Old May 6 2011, 06:06 AM   #127
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Re: Constellation class

^ That would be like saying the F-22 Raptor's engines/control surfaces are capable of performing maneuvers up to 90Gs. That's all well and good, but the AIRFRAME can't take that kind of strain and it would fly apart under that force. Whatever the engine's maximum output in theory, there are practical reasons why it can never be put into practice. It's the same story with the Alphas never managing to exceed about 40 knots.
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Old May 6 2011, 02:01 PM   #128
Timo
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Re: Constellation class

Although it looks like "maximum warp" for Voyager actually became slower as time (and damage) went on...
We must consider here that "Maneuvers" and "Threshold" would call for the sort of maximum warp where the ship dodges the enemy and perhaps occasionally stops to get its bearings. Calculating from simple A-to-B distance and apparent travel time wouldn't be a surefire way to establish speeds in such cases.

The idea of the ship gradually getting slower is sound as such, and one wouldn't necessarily expect our heroes to alter their perception of the ship's specs on basis of this. When they do discuss their ship with outsiders, they aren't exactly motivated to tell about degrading true performance.

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Old May 7 2011, 04:33 AM   #129
blssdwlf
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Re: Constellation class

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
^ That would be like saying the F-22 Raptor's engines/control surfaces are capable of performing maneuvers up to 90Gs. That's all well and good, but the AIRFRAME can't take that kind of strain and it would fly apart under that force. Whatever the engine's maximum output in theory, there are practical reasons why it can never be put into practice. It's the same story with the Alphas never managing to exceed about 40 knots.
Something like that. A more refined comparison might be like saying a factory-fresh F-15 airframe could do Mach 2.5 clean and 9G maneuvers but a heavily fatigued and constantly patched together F-15 airframe might only be able to do Mach 2.2 and 8G maneuvers. The engines could still push it to Mach 2.5 but at greater risk to the airframe...
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Old May 10 2011, 08:21 AM   #130
Saquist
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Re: Constellation class

That's a fascinating break down (no pun intended) of the degradation of the engines, Blssdwlf.
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Old May 11 2011, 06:26 AM   #131
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Re: Constellation class

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
^ That would be like saying the F-22 Raptor's engines/control surfaces are capable of performing maneuvers up to 90Gs. That's all well and good, but the AIRFRAME can't take that kind of strain and it would fly apart under that force. Whatever the engine's maximum output in theory, there are practical reasons why it can never be put into practice. It's the same story with the Alphas never managing to exceed about 40 knots.
Something like that. A more refined comparison might be like saying a factory-fresh F-15 airframe could do Mach 2.5 clean and 9G maneuvers but a heavily fatigued and constantly patched together F-15 airframe might only be able to do Mach 2.2 and 8G maneuvers. The engines could still push it to Mach 2.5 but at greater risk to the airframe...
While the F-22 can't even supercruise with external pylons attached.

That's actually sort of what I had in mind with "Warp 9.975" being an intentional fudge. Anyone who flies in an Intrepid knows those specs are pretty optimistic, but they quote them anyway because the walls have ears.
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Old May 11 2011, 08:26 AM   #132
Timo
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Re: Constellation class

...To be sure, Janeway's crew might have been truly ignorant of the shortcomings in "Caretaker", as the ship apparently was summoned to her first mission without much prior testing. Stadi would be speaking out of manuals, not out of experience, when bragging to Paris. For all we know, even the Intrepid herself had not yet finished testing the edges of the envelope at that time.

It's only the repeating of the 9.975 specs well into the adventures that creates an annoyance here. Otherwise, we could take "Threshold" at face value (now there's an idea!) and decide that the ship's performance was reduced early on, and possibly kept on degrading. But it's pretty darn difficult to wiggle out of that repeating of the figure, unless we indeed think the crew feared a Starfleet politruk would overhear them and force them into the "Rascals" cloud to relive their youth or otherwise torture them.

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Old May 11 2011, 12:45 PM   #133
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Re: Constellation class

I thought the line was "statable cruise velocity", which suggests it was something the engineers thought was possible. The upper-upper limit.
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Old May 11 2011, 01:38 PM   #134
Timo
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Re: Constellation class

In "Caretaker" it was "sustainable cruise velocity". In "Relativity", it was "top cruising speed".

Where else did we hear warp 9.975 mentioned?

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