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Old April 30 2011, 07:47 PM   #106
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Movies would be the only way I'd ever learn the stories of The Silmarillion. I am interested in what they're about, but I have no intention of ever reading them.
The Silmarillion is like the Old Testament. It's full of geneologies, who begat who, creation myths, many different characters with their own long tales, many locations, and it takes place over thousands of years. It really is several dozen books within a single book.
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Old April 30 2011, 08:07 PM   #107
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

The Silmarillon is not as accessible as the LotR or the Hobbit. That's partly because Tolkien never finished telling the story himself, of course, but also because there are really no characters like the Hobbits to mediate the readers' relationship to the high fantasy. Human beings don't even come into the story until about a third of the way through. Even then, they are of the heroic variety for the most part.

It's more like reading actual myths or arthurian romance in a condensed form.

It would be a challenge to adapt, but not impossible. It could also end up being extremely lucrative. I think you'd end up with the following basic stories:

Feonor and the Silmarils
Beren and Luthien
The Children of Hurin
Earendil
The Fall of Numenor

The first movie would probably be the trickiest, honestly, as it would have to establish the whole mythology, and would probably have to introduce humanity once the Elves arrive on Middle Earth in pursuit of Morgoth. Some adjustments would have to be made with the chronology here, but nothing out of hand.

Beren and Luthien, along with the Children of Hurin, are the two sections that most easily lend themselves to stand alone stories. As somebody mentioned above, you could start the Beren and Luthien movie with the Fall of Fingolfin, which would be EPIC. This movie would also introduce Sauron.

Similarly, you could start the Children of Hurin with the last stand of the men of Dor-lomin (sp?), equally epic. Mostly it would focus on Turin. Lots of good characters here, including Beleg and Mablung.

The story of Earendil would start with the Fall of Gondolin and end with the defeat of Morgoth. The trickiest aspect would really be the first movie. It would have to cover a lot of ground, and that story has the least obvious hook. For that reason, another possibility would be to start in medias res with Beren and Luthien, and continue from there. This story is rich and complex enough that it could actually be two movies, same with most of the other stories mentioned above. It has everything, really. Strong male and female leads, epic adventure, romance. Less detail in the actual text than with the LotR, so plenty of flexibility for the director.

The budgets for these movies would be off the charts, though.

I'm speaking as somebody who doesn't like the Jackson films much, by the way. But the reality is, somebody is thinking about these scripts as we speak. You could easily make six or seven huge movies with this material.
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Old April 30 2011, 09:18 PM   #108
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

I think that regardless of budgetary concerns, the only way the Silmarillon could be adapted into film and not be a load of tedious, incoherent nonsense would be as a series of short vignettes--animation would be favourite--that tell (very) abridged versions of some of the key tales of Middle Earth. Something along the lines of The Animatrix or Gotham Knights with a bunch of smaller shorts and one much longer one telling the broad strokes of the first two ages right up until the Last Alliance. A mishmash of different styles to suit the individual tales. I would make a nice companion piece to The Hobbit prior to release but it probably too late now to make that deadline. For one thing, I have no idea if anyone owns the rights to The Silmarillon or if the Tolkien estate would be willing to sell them in any case.
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Old April 30 2011, 10:22 PM   #109
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Here's a pic of Hugo Weaving on set with Peter Jackson, source MovieWeb:

Weaving On-Set with PJ
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Old May 1 2011, 12:00 AM   #110
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Reverend wrote: View Post
I think that regardless of budgetary concerns, the only way the Silmarillon could be adapted into film and not be a load of tedious, incoherent nonsense would be as a series of short vignettes--animation would be favourite--that tell (very) abridged versions of some of the key tales of Middle Earth. Something along the lines of The Animatrix or Gotham Knights with a bunch of smaller shorts and one much longer one telling the broad strokes of the first two ages right up until the Last Alliance. A mishmash of different styles to suit the individual tales. I would make a nice companion piece to The Hobbit prior to release but it probably too late now to make that deadline. For one thing, I have no idea if anyone owns the rights to The Silmarillon or if the Tolkien estate would be willing to sell them in any case.
I could see animated vignettes, instead of feature films, actually working. It's less risk and has greater flexibility.
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Old May 1 2011, 01:46 AM   #111
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^ I could definitely see that working, yeah. It could also be a way of introducing some of the mythology that would eventually lead to live-action adaptations.

I'm not actually very interested in seeing that happen, but I do think that, before too long, someone will give it a shot.
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Old May 1 2011, 01:31 PM   #112
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Lee Pace (Pushing Daisies) will play Thranduil. The role of Fíli has also been recast, following Rob Kazinsky's departure.
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Old May 1 2011, 01:58 PM   #113
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

The Fall Of Númenórë would be an interesting one to me
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Old May 1 2011, 02:16 PM   #114
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

flemm wrote: View Post
^ I could definitely see that working, yeah. It could also be a way of introducing some of the mythology that would eventually lead to live-action adaptations.

I'm not actually very interested in seeing that happen, but I do think that, before too long, someone will give it a shot.
Well, the cartoon LOTR predated the live action, so maybe it'll be the gateway to more movies. I could see it sort of like that cartoon section of Watchman. They could do it while the Hobbit movies are being released to cash in on them and much lower risk. I can't really remember any overlap in characters either (except Sauron) and, if there are, they could be brought in as an easy voice acting gig or, in the worst case, replaced by sound-alikes.
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Old May 1 2011, 02:20 PM   #115
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
The Fall Of Númenórë would be an interesting one to me
I'd have never guessed. Planning a trip to The Undying Lands?

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Old May 1 2011, 07:38 PM   #116
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flemm wrote: View Post
The Silmarillon is not as accessible as the LotR or the Hobbit. That's partly because Tolkien never finished telling the story himself, of course, but also because there are really no characters like the Hobbits to mediate the readers' relationship to the high fantasy. Human beings don't even come into the story until about a third of the way through. Even then, they are of the heroic variety for the most part.

It's more like reading actual myths or arthurian romance in a condensed form.

It would be a challenge to adapt, but not impossible. It could also end up being extremely lucrative. I think you'd end up with the following basic stories:

Feonor and the Silmarils
Beren and Luthien
The Children of Hurin
Earendil
The Fall of Numenor

The first movie would probably be the trickiest, honestly, as it would have to establish the whole mythology, and would probably have to introduce humanity once the Elves arrive on Middle Earth in pursuit of Morgoth. Some adjustments would have to be made with the chronology here, but nothing out of hand.

Beren and Luthien, along with the Children of Hurin, are the two sections that most easily lend themselves to stand alone stories. As somebody mentioned above, you could start the Beren and Luthien movie with the Fall of Fingolfin, which would be EPIC. This movie would also introduce Sauron.

Similarly, you could start the Children of Hurin with the last stand of the men of Dor-lomin (sp?), equally epic. Mostly it would focus on Turin. Lots of good characters here, including Beleg and Mablung.

The story of Earendil would start with the Fall of Gondolin and end with the defeat of Morgoth. The trickiest aspect would really be the first movie. It would have to cover a lot of ground, and that story has the least obvious hook. For that reason, another possibility would be to start in medias res with Beren and Luthien, and continue from there. This story is rich and complex enough that it could actually be two movies, same with most of the other stories mentioned above. It has everything, really. Strong male and female leads, epic adventure, romance. Less detail in the actual text than with the LotR, so plenty of flexibility for the director.

The budgets for these movies would be off the charts, though.

I'm speaking as somebody who doesn't like the Jackson films much, by the way. But the reality is, somebody is thinking about these scripts as we speak. You could easily make six or seven huge movies with this material.
Accessibility be damned, it's got a hell of a lot more interesting storytelling than The Hobbit and the production, cost and editing challenges are of no greater scale than those of the trilogy.

6079SmithW wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Movies would be the only way I'd ever learn the stories of The Silmarillion. I am interested in what they're about, but I have no intention of ever reading them.
The Silmarillion is like the Old Testament. It's full of geneologies, who begat who, creation myths, many different characters with their own long tales, many locations, and it takes place over thousands of years. It really is several dozen books within a single book.
Thanks for the "I read the back cover and wrote an Amazon review". Someone mentioned "Detached Folklore", talk about a detached review. I'm just going to go ahead and assume everyone who thinks this way read about 5 pages into the Valaquenta and gave up.

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
A collection of unrelated tales almost always do not make an epic movie. The only time it works is in Tarentino-esque ultra violent gangster movies.
Unrelated? You've... actually read it, right?

AJBryant wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
As someone who read the Appendix to the Return of the King, even I think the Silmarillion would make a bad movie. Maybe it's just the way the story was told. The LOTR was a personal story focusing on characters. The Silmarillion is sort of detached folk lore. It has an omniscient narrator throughout if I recall correctly. It doesn't lend itself to the same style as everything else (while the Hobbit does, aside from being a lighter tale).
Dude, it could be EPIC.

The Silmarillion is not ONE tale. It's a collection of unrelated stories. Beren and Luthien would make a hell of a movie. And, man... the story of Feanor and his sons -- that would be majorly BITCHIN.
THANK YOU!

People keep saying that each tale is separate and unrelated, but if you have the big picture in front of you, you wouldn't feel that way. It's a chronology, one that takes place over thousands of years, yes, but one that features characters who live for thousands of years. I didn't say the entire thing could be told in one continuous stream, I said it has enough of a continuous story in the war of the jewels to sustain at least one primary thread.

I swear to God, the fact that some of you will pay money to watch the goddamn Hobbit and sit here and denigrate the filmability of what would fifty times more worthy of screen time and call yourself a Tolkien fan is a sacrilege on the order of jerking off into the pope hat by fantasizing about a dismembered baby Jesus. It makes me want to bolt you to a chair, staple your eyes open and force you to read the damn thing because I'm betting half of you are a bunch of fucking liars. You always get this with Tolkien, posers who cracked the book, got bored and slam it to distract from their infantile attention spans.
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Old May 1 2011, 07:42 PM   #117
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

So it would be similar to (at least structurally) the Narnia movies?
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Old May 1 2011, 08:42 PM   #118
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

John O. wrote: View Post
6079SmithW wrote: View Post

The Silmarillion is like the Old Testament. It's full of geneologies, who begat who, creation myths, many different characters with their own long tales, many locations, and it takes place over thousands of years. It really is several dozen books within a single book.
Thanks for the "I read the back cover and wrote an Amazon review". Someone mentioned "Detached Folklore", talk about a detached review. I'm just going to go ahead and assume everyone who thinks this way read about 5 pages into the Valaquenta and gave up.
I was simply trying to exemplify the fact that the Silmarillion is quite different from the Lord of the Rings in terms of scope. LOTR is more linear in that it focuses on one primary set of characters with a single overarching goal (destroying the ring).
The Silmarillion also has primary characters with a main goal (recovering the silmarils) but there are many more secondary characters and side quests that are covered in as much depth as the main ones.

Also, I know you were being sarcastic (and borderline trolling) but I have read the Silmarillion in its entirety and loved all of it. I have never written a review for it on Amazon.


Furthermore:

John O. wrote: View Post
I swear to God, the fact that some of you will pay money to watch the goddamn Hobbit and sit here and denigrate the filmability of what would fifty times more worthy of screen time and call yourself a Tolkien fan is a sacrilege on the order of jerking off into the pope hat by fantasizing about a dismembered baby Jesus. It makes me want to bolt you to a chair, staple your eyes open and force you to read the damn thing because I'm betting half of you are a bunch of fucking liars. You always get this with Tolkien, posers who cracked the book, got bored and slam it to distract from their infantile attention spans.
This is completely uncalled for and really is trolling. Some posters pointed out what they thought would be problems with adapting the Silmarillion to the big screen. They weren't bashing the material itself. I bet all of us fans would love to see the Silmarillion in the movies or on TV some day, but right now the Hobbit is the story that has been green-lighted.

Yet, you accuse them of not being fans and for not reading the books. How do you know what someone has or hasn't read? I'm going to go out on a limb and say most people responding to this thread are Tolkein fans and have read the books.

We're all fans and the Hobbit is just as worthy of film as the Silmarillion. No need for anger.
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Old May 1 2011, 08:59 PM   #119
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

John O. wrote: View Post
I swear to God, the fact that some of you will pay money to watch the goddamn Hobbit and sit here and denigrate the filmability of what would fifty times more worthy of screen time and call yourself a Tolkien fan is a sacrilege on the order of jerking off into the pope hat by fantasizing about a dismembered baby Jesus. It makes me want to bolt you to a chair, staple your eyes open and force you to read the damn thing because I'm betting half of you are a bunch of fucking liars. You always get this with Tolkien, posers who cracked the book, got bored and slam it to distract from their infantile attention spans.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm
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Old May 2 2011, 12:33 AM   #120
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Re: THE HOBBIT (2012/2013): News, Rumors, Pics Till Release

John O. wrote: View Post
I swear to God, the fact that some of you will pay money to watch the goddamn Hobbit and sit here and denigrate the filmability of what would fifty times more worthy of screen time and call yourself a Tolkien fan is a sacrilege on the order of jerking off into the pope hat by fantasizing about a dismembered baby Jesus. It makes me want to bolt you to a chair, staple your eyes open and force you to read the damn thing because I'm betting half of you are a bunch of fucking liars. You always get this with Tolkien, posers who cracked the book, got bored and slam it to distract from their infantile attention spans.
Back off. Now.

I don't care which you find to be the superior product in history or potential, but there is NO cause for hauling off like that over a simple difference of opinion. Disagree if you must but use more tact, or the next time it will be an infraction.

Or Smaug's fire.
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