A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Shurik wrote:

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Jeyne, Robb's wife? That's the first time I'm hearing about this theory ...

Yes, Jeyne Westerling.

Kegg wrote:

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Robb explicitly made Jon Snow his heir, actually, though over his mother's objections. I don't remember offhand if any witnesses to this besides Catelyn even survived, though. There were other possible candidates, which she referred to briefly, but they were basically like descendants of some great grand uncle of Ned's, the sort of family many times removed who normally wouldn't be taking over.

I've been refreshing my memory by reading some of the threads at Westeros, and that was Robb's stated intention at the start of the conversation with Catelyn, but some have pointed out that it's only an assumption that he carried through on it rather than being swayed to name someone else - perhaps Arya.

[Kegg]

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote:

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I've been refreshing my memory by reading some of the threads at Westeros, and that was Robb's stated intention at the start of the conversation with Catelyn, but some have pointed out that it's only an assumption that he carried through on it rather than being swayed to name someone else - perhaps Arya.

I read the books recently. Arya is assumed to be dead. The options Catelyn resorts to are such distant relatives of the Starks precisely because Arya is assumed to be dead. I thought it was pretty unambiguous about Jon Snow being named his heir, really.

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

^^^
Fair enough. Jon's possible Targ parentage and the possibility of a Jeyne switcheroo seem like bigger issues than Robb's letter in any event.

[Shurik]

Kegg wrote:

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I read the books recently. Arya is assumed to be dead. The options Catelyn resorts to are such distant relatives of the Starks precisely because Arya is assumed to be dead. I thought it was pretty unambiguous about Jon Snow being named his heir, really.

Arya is assumed to be dead even by Varys and Littlefinger, and those two know everything worth knowing.

[Checkmate]

I don't know much about the series but I have read about Cersei's prophecy and how she's prophecized to die. And it just seems to me that Tyrion is a huge red herring in that regard. Jaime, albeit only by a few minutes, is her "little brother." I think her downfall will be at his hands while she's either obsessed with Tyrion or lets her guard down after she's dealt with him.

No idea if any of that's gone down already though. Just something that leapt out at me after I read that tidbit.

[Kegg]

Checkmate wrote:

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I don't know much about the series but I have read about Cersei's prophecy and how she's prophecized to die. And it just seems to me that Tyrion is a huge red herring in that regard. Jaime, albeit only by a few minutes, is her "little brother."

I agree with this. The relationship between Jaime and Cersei notably sours in A Feast for Crows... and besides, prophecies are always more narratively interesting when characters tragically misread them (cf: Oedipus).

I also think that Cersei has misread - perhaps more obviously - the prophecy about being bested by a younger queen. She's convinced that this is Magaery Tyrell but it seems far more likely to be Daenerys Targaryen.

Petyr Baelish seems to be aware of this possibility as well, judging from his 'war of the three queens' quip.

[FreezeC77]

I think there's something else which may somewhat confirm Jon as a Targaryen... Let's not forget that Dany has dragons and a dragon(s) suddenly halting in front of him and acknowledging him in the same way it does Dany would be something. Maybe not anything definitive, but it would lead credibility if at that time he was thought to be a Targaryen.

[Reliant Robin]

Dany did also havethat vision about a blue flower (associated with Lyanna) growing in a wall of ice, so there may be something in the idea that she'll recognise/identify him by some fantastical means.

[Skywalker]

Another hint towards Jon's true parentage and potential legitimacy is the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. The Kingsguard are sworn to protect the royal family at all cost. But why were three of them still at the Tower of Joy when Ned, Howland Reed, and the others showed up? By then, Rhaegar Targaryen had been killed at the Trident, which should have meant that Viserys, his younger brother, was now the heir to the throne.

Ned's party didn't ride for the Tower of Joy until they lifted the Siege of Storm's End and after the sack of King's Landing, both of which happened after the Battle of the Trident, so there would have been plenty of time for Arthur Dayne and his two companions to learn of the death of Aerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaegar's children, and leave to go and protect Viserys. But they didn't. So, to me, that implies that Rhaegar and Lyanna did marry, and Lyanna was pregnant with Rhaegar's only surviving child, who would be the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.

[Caliburn24]

Heh, R+L=J finally comes to the Trekbbs. What next, "Who killed Asmodean"?

The people who might know of Jon's true parentage are actually more numerous than is commonly thought.

Howland, obviously.

Varys, obviously. The Spider was around back then.

Littlefinger, might have figured it out.

Barristan, might know, yet have blocked it out.

Jon Connington, presumed dead, but as the Hand of Aerys and Rhaegar's best friend would perhaps have known of Jon. It has been speculated that he is alive and is the Griffon in the Free Cities.

Ashara Dayne, she was an intimate of Elia, Rhaegar, Ned and maybe Lyanna. We're told she threw herself off a cliff, but it has been speculated that she is alive and following Danaerys as the shadowbinder Quaithe.

[Kegg]

Caliburn24 wrote:

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Ashara Dayne, she was an intimate of Elia, Rhaegar, Ned and maybe Lyanna. We're told she threw herself off a cliff, but it has been speculated that she is alive and following Danaerys as the shadowbinder Quaithe.

Now that'd be a twist worthy of any daytime soap.

I like Quaithe as an enigma, honestly. I have this feeling she'll lose that potency if pinned down - especially if pinned down as a Weterosi.

That said, I personally think Quaithe's real asset to the Daenerys story has nothing to do with Jon and everything to do with dragons, which were supposedly originally from Asshai. Well, that and/or Azor Ahai, which is an Asshai'i legend.

[JD]

Just out of curiosity, how magical do the books get as they go along? I've heard that there's very little in the first books, but more as they go along.
Oh, and reading through this thread is making me really curious to read the rest of the series.

[Hyperspace05]

Starting with book two there are more magical elements. It has been speculated that a certain important event at the end of AGOT increases the magic present in the world. Or Perhaps we just see more practioners and artifices of magical origins.

Either way magic comes more to the forefront. But GRRM definitely plays with expectations. The magic in the series is different than any fantasy series I have read. But the magic never overshadows the core of the series - the interpersonal drama.

[Kegg]

There's a fair bit of magic or possible magic in the first book as well. I frankly consider the five direwolves for five Stark children (and the runt of the litter for the bastard) some intentional omen by some supernatural force.

Given also that the mother of the litter is dead with an equally symbolic stag, and at least three of the children (Bran, Arya, Jon) have varying ability to become their wolves when they sleep... yeah.

Magic's afoot.

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

A Dance with Dragons is officially done. George R.R. Martin has delivered the complete manuscript to his publishers. The last bit of revising has been done and all that's left is a final editing polish. July 12th here we come!