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Old April 22 2011, 12:09 PM   #16
Scout101
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Yep, assumed that was the pairing right there. Lord Snow being more than bit ironic, as Jon would be rightful king of Westeros and all...
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Old April 22 2011, 12:13 PM   #17
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Shurik wrote: View Post
Venardhi wrote: View Post
So, who has figured out who Jon's mother is? I love that -pop- in the eyes of a friend when it finally clicks for them.
My theory was always Rhaegar+Lyanna, and it makes more and more sense with further readings. Ned told some bullshit stories about a random serving wench or whatever to preserve Lyanna's son from Robert's hatred of Targaryens.
Yea, I can't remember exactly I realized it was probably Rhaegar, but it was fairly early on since from shortly after he was introduced I just always sensed that he wasn't really Ned's.

Speaking of those events... I wonder how the series will handle flashbacks? How much of Gregor's actions do you think they will actually show? Seeing a huge man bashing the skull of a little baby and then raping his Mother... Something tells me that isn't going to make it to air.
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Old April 22 2011, 12:16 PM   #18
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I think most of the flashbacks will just be referenced through dialogue. I think we saw a brief glimpse in one of the teasers of Brandon Stark strangling himself trying to save his father, and the only other flashback I can see them actually filming is the "Promise me, Ned" scene, and I'm picturing those flashes as being rather chaotic and jumbled because of Ned's fever.

I'll probably be completely wrong, though.
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Old April 22 2011, 12:28 PM   #19
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Skywalker wrote: View Post
I think most of the flashbacks will just be referenced through dialogue. I think we saw a brief glimpse in one of the teasers of Brandon Stark strangling himself trying to save his father, and the only other flashback I can see them actually filming is the "Promise me, Ned" scene, and I'm picturing those flashes as being rather chaotic and jumbled because of Ned's fever.

I'll probably be completely wrong, though.
I remember reading that Aerys the Mad King was cast and the flashback of Ned's brother and father's death was filmed. The rest of the flashbacks will probably be told through talking ...
How much of Gregor's actions do you think they will actually show? Seeing a huge man bashing the skull of a little baby and then raping his Mother... Something tells me that isn't going to make it to air.
Yeah, I think it'll be too much even for HBO ...
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Old April 22 2011, 12:37 PM   #20
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Shurik wrote: View Post
Venardhi wrote: View Post
So, who has figured out who Jon's mother is? I love that -pop- in the eyes of a friend when it finally clicks for them.
My theory was always Rhaegar+Lyanna, and it makes more and more sense with further readings.
My working theory when reading A Game of Thrones was Ned and Lyanna (what? he seemed a little close to his sister). He's described as having very strong Stark features, after all, and none of the Targaryen stuff.

But then, Eddard's honour requiring him to protect his sister's son by claiming him as his own bastard (because Robert Baratheon isn't known for loving Targaryen babies) also makes sense.

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Yep, assumed that was the pairing right there. Lord Snow being more than bit ironic, as Jon would be rightful king of Westeros and all...
Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne though, right?

In that case Jon's true identity would simply be (drumroll) Jon Waters, not King Jon Targaryen.
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Old April 22 2011, 12:56 PM   #21
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Not if Rhaegar and Lyanna married before Jon was born. It wouldn't have been the first time a Targaryen took more than one wife.
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Old April 22 2011, 04:41 PM   #22
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I think Dany, as the surviving legitimate Targaryen, could legitimise him if she wanted, assuming some distant future where they meet, recognise each other and want to. IIRC - it's been a while - wasn't Robb talking about legitimising Jon as heir of Winterfell before everything went tits up? So it's a doable thing.
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Old April 22 2011, 04:53 PM   #23
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Even if legitimized, Jon would have to turn his back on his vow to the Watch to take the throne, though, so that's another complicating factor.

Robb made someone his heir and put it in writing, but it wasn't revealed who he ended up naming.
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Old April 22 2011, 05:00 PM   #24
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Even if legitimized, Jon would have to turn his back on his vow to the Watch to take the throne, though, so that's another complicating factor.

Robb made someone his heir and put it in writing, but it wasn't revealed who he ended up naming.
IIRC, Stannis offered Jon Winterfell, so I guess there's a way to turn back on the vow and not being beheaded for it. Anyway, bastards can be legitimized by kings - the example was Bolton's bastard who was legitimized following the Red Wedding.

I don't think there were many possibilities for Robb - he thought his younger brothers are dead and he has no idea what's going on with his sisters. His father is dead, his uncle is missing beyond the Wall and he basically has no other possible candidates besides Jon. As far as he knew - he and Jon were the only male Starks left alive.
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Old April 22 2011, 05:18 PM   #25
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^^^
Yeah, that's true.

Another wrinkle is that some fans have a theory that there's been a switch regarding Jeyne and that the real Jeyne is carrying Robb's child.
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Old April 22 2011, 05:52 PM   #26
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
^^^
Yeah, that's true.

Another wrinkle is that some fans have a theory that there's been a switch regarding Jeyne and that the real Jeyne is carrying Robb's child.
Jeyne, Robb's wife? That's the first time I'm hearing about this theory ...
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Old April 22 2011, 05:56 PM   #27
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

The Westerlings seem to have had some kind of understanding with Tywin Lannister, the mother refers to this after Riverrun falls. It's probably too conspirational to suppose they intentionally tried to marry Robb so Tywin could wean the Freys away from the Starks and have them kill them all, but I do wonder what's up with that.

Reliant Robin wrote: View Post
I think Dany, as the surviving legitimate Targaryen, could legitimise him if she wanted, assuming some distant future where they meet, recognise each other and want to.
That's a lot of ifs. Who would actually know that Jon Snow was Rheagar's son? He looks every bit a Stark, so it won't quite be 'egad, you're plainly a Baratheon' like Gendry.

No, if there's anyone who can identify Jon as Rhaegar's son, it would be someone who knew he had a son by Lyanna... and sort of a seance, that isn't gonna be Ned Sterk.

As far as Daenerys goes, Barristan the Bold may know precisely this.

In fact, isn't the last time Barristan saw Daenerys the time he revealed to her all he knew about the Targaryens? If he knew, then he may have already told Daenerys about Jon. There's food for thought, or not.

Beyond Barristan, it would not surprise me if Varys knew.

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Robb made someone his heir and put it in writing, but it wasn't revealed who he ended up naming.
Robb explicitly made Jon Snow his heir, actually, though over his mother's objections. I don't remember offhand if any witnesses to this besides Catelyn even survived, though. There were other possible candidates, which she referred to briefly, but they were basically like descendants of some great grand uncle of Ned's, the sort of family many times removed who normally wouldn't be taking over.

Lord Commander of the Night Watch, King of the North, King of the Seven Kingdoms.. christ, we may as well make him Azor Ahai at this rate.
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Old April 22 2011, 06:02 PM   #28
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

No, if there's anyone who can identify Jon as Rhaegar's son, it would be someone who knew he had a son by Lyanna... and sort of a ouija board, that isn't gonna be Bed Sterk.
Howland Reed was with Ned at the place where Lyanna died, so he might know the truth about Jon's parents. However, he's hiding in his bog lands and there's no way to reach him.
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Old April 22 2011, 06:07 PM   #29
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I wasn't so much imagining an "Eegads, it's you!" moment as that if Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, it will become known somehow at some point, and then such things as his connection to Dany and the Targaryens would become relevant.
But I agree there's some miles to go before we get there.

Shurik, IIRC that theory is based on the fact that Cat's description of Jeyne includes her having good childbearing hips, but when Jaime sees Jeyne, he observes she has narrow hips. One of those details that could either be extremely deliberate and meaningful or else an utterly meaningless mistake.
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Old April 22 2011, 06:09 PM   #30
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^
Seems possible. If Jeyne does have Robb's son, I'd assume she's with Brynden Tully.

Shurik wrote: View Post
Howland Reed was with Ned at the place where Lyanna died, so he might know the truth about Jon's parents. However, he's hiding in his bog lands and there's no way to reach him.
I'd wager one could find Reed if he wanted you to find him, though. And the Reeds seem to be on pretty good terms with the Starks (what little is left of the family, anyway).

I guess the question though is, besides Jon himself, who stands to benefit from his parentage being known? If there's someone who wants a Targaryen on the throne and not Daenerys, it has some use, otherwise it's as trivial as Maester Aemon's parentage.
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