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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Rough Beasts Of Empire
Outstanding 36 25.53%
Above Average 58 41.13%
Average 25 17.73%
Below Average 13 9.22%
Poor 9 6.38%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

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Old March 27 2011, 05:39 PM   #481
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Besides...perhaps holding the cure for ransom ("You surrender, and we will hand over the cure.") is a good idea, after all.
That could have been the actual intent behind the whole thing.
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Old March 27 2011, 07:12 PM   #482
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
[Oh, it still could very well be considered a bad thing, I don't contest that it unnecessarily causes civilian deaths.
Could very well be considered a bad thing? No - terrorists running around blowing up nukes near population centers is a bad thing. No "could be" about it.
Would you tell that to the Bajorans?
Kai Opaka betrayed her son and 42 other resistance fighters to the Cardassians to save the lives of the 1200 inhabitants of the Kendra Valley.

As a rule, the Bajoran Resistance does not seem to have been cheap with the lives of Bajoran civilians.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
I was using it as an example demonstrating that the Changelings were at war with the "solids" when said "solids" were not at war with them.

You can argue that 31 didn't know about pseudo-Martok when they infected the Founders. You cannot argue that they didn't know about the events of "Homefront/Paradise Lost".
No, of course not.

This illustrates exactly the problem with Section 31's tendency to escalate situations. Was the Dominion's bombing of the Antwerp conference different from the way that Section 31 behaved towards other polities? If not, then doesn't Section 31's behaviour leave the Federation's population open to the same kind of attempt at genocide that the Dominion's behaviour exposed the Founders to?

It's not in the interest of the Federation to have Section 31 active.

And yes, the Soviet Union under Stalin and the Middle East in the 1950s and 1960s did see several wars triggered by Section 31-style paranoia (among other factors). Might you have heard of them?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
If the Founders' agenda is to suppress the "solid" threat, a more efficient means of doing so would be to destroy them--if the Dominion were capable of it. Why would they waste resources on holding onto formerlly free worlds?
That's what they did in the Gamma Quadrant with conquered planets. The Dominion has subordinate civilizations and conquered planets aplenty. Why wouldn't they do that in the Alpha Quadrant?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
As Machiavelli said, there are only two ways to successfully conquer a formerly free society: to go live there to watch everything (which is absurd and impossible for the Founders, for various reasons)--or to destroy the society completely.
That's absurd. The Soviet Union was perfectly capable of conquering free societies--in the Baltic States, western Ukraine and Belarus, the central and southeastern European satellites, East Germany--without killing the ~100M people living there. Indeed, that's what it did.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
31's virus was akin not to "mass muder of citizend", so much as mass muder of the high-ranking officials of the Soviet Union--resulting in complete instability in the Soviet government.
It would be akin to an attempt at mass murder of citizens, something like some of the Cold War nuclear plans of the United States which basically advocated targeted genocide, i.e. attacks being made preferentially on ethnic Russian populations as opposed to non-Russian populations. Genocide, in brief.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Besides...perhaps holding the cure for ransom ("You surrender, and we will hand over the cure.") is a good idea, after all.
Telling a species that believes in the utter treacherousness of solids that unless they surrender they'll be annihilated, depending as it does on the belief that these treacherous people who've shown a willingness to try to exterminate your species will keep their word, has obvious failure modes.

And 31 didn't try to kill off all the Vorta and Jem'Hadar in the Alpha Quadrant.
31 tried to kill all the Founders; your analogies aren't.

Last edited by rfmcdpei; March 27 2011 at 07:13 PM. Reason: typos
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Old March 27 2011, 10:47 PM   #483
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post

Could very well be considered a bad thing? No - terrorists running around blowing up nukes near population centers is a bad thing. No "could be" about it.
Would you tell that to the Bajorans?
Kai Opaka betrayed her son and 42 other resistance fighters to the Cardassians to save the lives of the 1200 inhabitants of the Kendra Valley.

As a rule, the Bajoran Resistance does not seem to have been cheap with the lives of Bajoran civilians.
Bajoran civilians, no. Cardassian civilians...yes.

Recall Kira's line in "Duet" that as far as the Resistance was concerned, "They were all guilty."

No, of course not.

This illustrates exactly the problem with Section 31's tendency to escalate situations. Was the Dominion's bombing of the Antwerp conference different from the way that Section 31 behaved towards other polities? If not, then doesn't Section 31's behaviour leave the Federation's population open to the same kind of attempt at genocide that the Dominion's behaviour exposed the Founders to?
Except the escalation didn't happen. The F.C. bloviated about it happening...while her numbers dwindled, the Breen retreated, and the Cardassians changed sides.

Furthermore...the morphogenic virus does not compare with the acts of genocide the Founders would (theoretically) impose--namely, fighting until the worlds were destroyed.

The virus was a subtle, behind-the scenes tactic which spread to all the Founders through the process of linking.

It's not in the interest of the Federation to have Section 31 active.

And yes, the Soviet Union under Stalin and the Middle East in the 1950s and 1960s did see several wars triggered by Section 31-style paranoia (among other factors). Might you have heard of them?
Oh, I have heard of them. Were Vietnam and Korea triggered by the KGB? If so, it didn't seem to harm the effectiveness of that organization.

Also...the Soviet Union was not under the Middle East.

That's what they did in the Gamma Quadrant with conquered planets. The Dominion has subordinate civilizations and conquered planets aplenty. Why wouldn't they do that in the Alpha Quadrant?
The question is whether those societies were "free societies" in the first place. Also, the subordinate civilizations were not conquered, per se, so much as subordinate members of a mob-like alliance. See: the Karemma. Also note how the DS9 writers concieved of the Dominion as a dark mirror image of the Federation.

Those subordinate powers were allied with the Dominion much as Cardassia was.


Now, as to the worlds conquered...note the episode with the old man and his holographic community. The Dominion had laid waste his world.

That's absurd. The Soviet Union was perfectly capable of conquering free societies--in the Baltic States, western Ukraine and Belarus, the central and southeastern European satellites, East Germany--without killing the ~100M people living there. Indeed, that's what it did.
Again, were they truly "free societies", or were their rulers already in place, which the Union replaced? Machiavelli also wrote that in the latter case, conquest is much easier--since the people are used to being ruled.

However, he warned that free societies would not forget their freedom--and will eventually rise up and rebel, and generally cause headaches for you.

Indeed, remember Bashir and the Jack Pack predicted that the former Federation would rise up and overthrow the Dominion--as Machiavelli would agree.

It would be akin to an attempt at mass murder of citizens, something like some of the Cold War nuclear plans of the United States which basically advocated targeted genocide, i.e. attacks being made preferentially on ethnic Russian populations as opposed to non-Russian populations. Genocide, in brief.
Not really. Stalin was Georgian, was he not? And yet he became a ruler of the Union.

The Founders--by their very race--were the ruling class. Even those which allegedly didn't take part in the ruling were still part of the class.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Besides...perhaps holding the cure for ransom ("You surrender, and we will hand over the cure.") is a good idea, after all.
Telling a species that believes in the utter treacherousness of solids that unless they surrender they'll be annihilated, depending as it does on the belief that these treacherous people who've shown a willingness to try to exterminate your species will keep their word, has obvious failure modes.
It wasn't as if the Federation could prove the paranoia wrong by giving up the cure with no questions asked.

In this case, the Founders would have little choice. What good would it be to make the universe safe for chagelings by wiping out solids--if the changelings all die off?

And 31 didn't try to kill off all the Vorta and Jem'Hadar in the Alpha Quadrant.
31 tried to kill all the Founders; your analogies aren't.
My analogies aren't...?

Again, the Founders were the ruling class, as opposed to the administrative subordinates, the soldiers, and the civilians.

Furthermore--again, the death of Founders leads to the mass suicide of Jem'Hadar--and the death of all the Founders therefore leads to the mass suicide of all the Jem'Hadar.
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Old March 28 2011, 03:19 AM   #484
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
It wasn't as if the Federation could prove the paranoia wrong by giving up the cure with no questions asked.
But it would certainly help. By handing over the cure out of the goodness of their hearts, then some of the Founders might start to question if solids are really as bad as they think. Especially if they used Odo as their spokesman.
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Old March 28 2011, 04:42 AM   #485
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

^ As I said, Section 31 could have planned that all along. Who's to say that they didn't *want* the Federation to hand over the cure? That would have been a perfect way to end the war. Which is, in a sense, what did happen.
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Old March 28 2011, 05:03 AM   #486
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post

Would you tell that to the Bajorans?
Kai Opaka betrayed her son and 42 other resistance fighters to the Cardassians to save the lives of the 1200 inhabitants of the Kendra Valley.

As a rule, the Bajoran Resistance does not seem to have been cheap with the lives of Bajoran civilians.
Bajoran civilians, no. Cardassian civilians...yes.

Recall Kira's line in "Duet" that as far as the Resistance was concerned, "They were all guilty."
The ones present on Bajor. I somehow doubt that she would have advocated detonating nuclear weapons in the middle of downtown Lakarian City, though.
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Old March 28 2011, 07:43 PM   #487
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Perhaps not. The problem still arises: that still included Cardassian civilians on Bajor.

On that note...it's quite possible that 31 didn't necessarily plan for the Link itself to be infected.

By that I mean: they infected Odo, on the grounds that he would infect the changelings he'd encounter.

Which changelings would he most likely enounter? The ones on this side of the wormhole.

Basically...what I'm getting at is that 31 may well have developed the virus as a weapon against the changeling infiltrators--which Odo would almost certainly help take down.

Those changelings might link with one another--but for obvious reasons, they wouldn't "sneak" out to the Gamma Quadrant to "link up", and then sneak back.

The possibility of it spreading to the Link--perhaps through contacts...or Odo...may therefore have simply been, as far as 31 was concerned, a fortunate happenstance.
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Old March 28 2011, 07:50 PM   #488
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Perhaps not. The problem still arises: that still included Cardassian civilians on Bajor.
There's a very big difference between committing mass murder against millions of people on their native land and committing small-scale attacks against "civilians" who were part of an invading and occupying foreign culture.

On that note...it's quite possible that 31 didn't necessarily plan for the Link itself to be infected.
Bullshit. That was their intent from the beginning. They were genocidal maniacs of the sort who would make Hitler proud and that's all there is to it.
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Old March 28 2011, 11:55 PM   #489
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Sci wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Perhaps not. The problem still arises: that still included Cardassian civilians on Bajor.
There's a very big difference between committing mass murder against millions of people on their native land and committing small-scale attacks against "civilians" who were part of an invading and occupying foreign culture.
Why put "civilians" in quotes? Were they somehow not civilians in reality?

Is it the case, then, that their very existance on Bajor made them compliant--thereby justifying Bajoran attacks directly targeting civilian lives? Isn't that generalizing on the basis of race?
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Old March 29 2011, 03:58 AM   #490
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Perhaps not. The problem still arises: that still included Cardassian civilians on Bajor.
There's a very big difference between committing mass murder against millions of people on their native land and committing small-scale attacks against "civilians" who were part of an invading and occupying foreign culture.
Why put "civilians" in quotes? Were they somehow not civilians in reality?

Is it the case, then, that their very existance on Bajor made them compliant--thereby justifying Bajoran attacks directly targeting civilian lives? Isn't that generalizing on the basis of race?
What would an actual Cardassian civilian - meaning, somebody who is not involved with the government or the military, and thus not working as part of the occupation force - even be doing on Bajor in the first place? Not counting family members, of course.


Sci wrote: View Post
I somehow doubt that she would have advocated detonating nuclear weapons in the middle of downtown Lakarian City, though.
Kira might not have, I agree. However, there may have been some of her compadres in the resistance who were not so accommodating. And years later, there's the Maquis, who definitely had some people like that as well (i.e. Eddington).
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Old March 29 2011, 07:23 AM   #491
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Bajoran civilians, no. Cardassian civilians...yes.

Recall Kira's line in "Duet" that as far as the Resistance was concerned, "They were all guilty."
Yeah - and she was wrong. That was kinda the point of the episode.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Furthermore--again, the death of Founders leads to the mass suicide of Jem'Hadar--and the death of all the Founders therefore leads to the mass suicide of all the Jem'Hadar.
I'm not seeing how two genocides are better than one...

Sci wrote: View Post
There's a very big difference between committing mass murder against millions of people on their native land and committing small-scale attacks against "civilians" who were part of an invading and occupying foreign culture.
Only in location and scale. The tactics of the Resistance were wrong when they targeted innocents. They may have been necessary, but they're nothing to be proud of.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
What would an actual Cardassian civilian - meaning, somebody who is not involved with the government or the military, and thus not working as part of the occupation force - even be doing on Bajor in the first place? Not counting family members, of course.
Why aren't we counting family members?
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Old March 29 2011, 08:24 AM   #492
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

There's a very big difference between committing mass murder against millions of people on their native land and committing small-scale attacks against "civilians" who were part of an invading and occupying foreign culture.
Why put "civilians" in quotes? Were they somehow not civilians in reality?
Given that the Cardassian Union was essentially a military dictatorship, I question how many Cardassians present on Occupied Bajor, save family members, were legitimately civilians and how many were essentially just an unofficial part of the occupying army.

Is it the case, then, that their very existance on Bajor made them compliant--thereby justifying Bajoran attacks directly targeting civilian lives? Isn't that generalizing on the basis of race?
Maybe. Maybe not. A very real argument can be made that absolutely no Cardassians had any right to be on Bajor, because Bajor had no legitimate government (only a puppet government obeying the Cardassians) to grant such a privilege, and that, therefore, any Cardassian present on Bajor was violating Bajor's sovereignty.

That's the essence, at the end of the day, of Kira's speech in "The Darkness and the Light." That's what she means when she says:

Kira Nerys wrote:
None of you should've been on Bajor! It wasn't your world! For fifty years you raped our planet and killed our people. You lived on our land and took the food from our mouths, so I don't care if you held a phaser in your hand or ironed shirts for a living. You were all guilty and you were all legitimate targets!
Certainly she seems to think that any Cardassians present on Bajor are legitimate targets. But even that is not the same thing as advocating the sort of genocide a nuclear attack would entail, especially since it's unclear just how many Cardassians were actually on Bajor.

Sci wrote: View Post
I somehow doubt that she would have advocated detonating nuclear weapons in the middle of downtown Lakarian City, though.
Kira might not have, I agree. However, there may have been some of her compadres in the resistance who were not so accommodating.
There's no evidence of that, however.

And years later, there's the Maquis, who definitely had some people like that as well (i.e. Eddington).
The Maquis were Federates. (Well, ex-Federates.) They had nothing to do with the Bajor/Cardassia conflict.

Kestrel wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Bajoran civilians, no. Cardassian civilians...yes.

Recall Kira's line in "Duet" that as far as the Resistance was concerned, "They were all guilty."
Yeah - and she was wrong. That was kinda the point of the episode.
Was it the point of the episode?

Of course, the thing to bear in mind about Kira is that even though she viewed all Cardassians present on Bajor during the Occupation as being violators of Bajoran sovereignty, she didn't necessarily think all Cardassians deserved to be killed. Witness her reaction at the end of "Duet," when a Cardassian not guilty of any war crimes is murdered by a Bajoran.

Her notion seems to be that any Cardassian on Bajor was violating Bajoran sovereignty, and that as such they were legitimate targets if there was an attack underway, but that notion does not seem to extend to the idea that just any Cardassian deserved death. Rather, her notion seems to be, "They shouldn't be here, tough shit if they die in the course of us achieving our objectives in our attack."

Sci wrote: View Post
There's a very big difference between committing mass murder against millions of people on their native land and committing small-scale attacks against "civilians" who were part of an invading and occupying foreign culture.
Only in location and scale.
Location and scale matter.
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Old March 29 2011, 05:55 PM   #493
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

There's a very big difference between committing mass murder against millions of people on their native land and committing small-scale attacks against "civilians" who were part of an invading and occupying foreign culture.
Why put "civilians" in quotes? Were they somehow not civilians in reality?

Is it the case, then, that their very existance on Bajor made them compliant--thereby justifying Bajoran attacks directly targeting civilian lives? Isn't that generalizing on the basis of race?
What would an actual Cardassian civilian - meaning, somebody who is not involved with the government or the military, and thus not working as part of the occupation force - even be doing on Bajor in the first place? Not counting family members, of course.
Sci wrote: View Post
Given that the Cardassian Union was essentially a military dictatorship, I question how many Cardassians present on Occupied Bajor, save family members, were legitimately civilians and how many were essentially just an unofficial part of the occupying army.
First, I ask the same question Kestrel did: why don't family members count?

Second, wasn't the stalker in "The Darkness And The Light" and Marritza in "Duet" civilians?

I'm not seeing how two genocides are better than one...
First, the Jem'Hadar kill themselves, therefore it's not a second "genocide", per se.

Second, I believe you yourself provide the means to the answer to your question:

Sci wrote: View Post
There's a very big difference between committing mass murder against millions of people on their native land and committing small-scale attacks against "civilians" who were part of an invading and occupying foreign culture.
Only in location and scale. The tactics of the Resistance were wrong when they targeted innocents. They may have been necessary, but they're nothing to be proud of.
Now taking that, and noting this claim--

Sci wrote: View Post
Location and scale matter.
--all of this begs for the question, as Picard asked, "How many people does it take, Admiral...before it becomes wrong, hmm? 1,000? 50,000? A million? How many people does it take, Admiral?"

Where do you draw the line, and say, "I don't care if means the war goes on even longer, and claims more lives on our side, and I don't care if not doing this runs the risk of their defeating us--I am opposed to genocide, and will not do it under any circumstance!"

If the Resistance targeting innocents was morally wrong, but tactically necessary, where do you draw the line between that and what should not be done?

Sci wrote: View Post
Maybe. Maybe not. A very real argument can be made that absolutely no Cardassians had any right to be on Bajor, because Bajor had no legitimate government (only a puppet government obeying the Cardassians) to grant such a privilege, and that, therefore, any Cardassian present on Bajor was violating Bajor's sovereignty.

That's the essence, at the end of the day, of Kira's speech in "The Darkness and the Light." That's what she means when she says:

None of you should've been on Bajor! It wasn't your world! For fifty years you raped our planet and killed our people. You lived on our land and took the food from our mouths, so I don't care if you held a phaser in your hand or ironed shirts for a living. You were all guilty and you were all legitimate targets!
Certainly she seems to think that any Cardassians present on Bajor are legitimate targets. But even that is not the same thing as advocating the sort of genocide a nuclear attack would entail, especially since it's unclear just how many Cardassians were actually on Bajor.
If there were that many, Sci, would the Resistance be justified in a nuke attack?

There's no evidence of that, however.
The Khon Ma?

The Maquis were Federates. (Well, ex-Federates.) They had nothing to do with the Bajor/Cardassia conflict.
That was not the point he was making. What he meant was that the Maquis were willing to do what they deemed necessary to achieve their goals.

Also, it's worth noting that Kira was somewhat sympathetic to them.

Of course, the thing to bear in mind about Kira is that even though she viewed all Cardassians present on Bajor during the Occupation as being violators of Bajoran sovereignty, she didn't necessarily think all Cardassians deserved to be killed. Witness her reaction at the end of "Duet," when a Cardassian not guilty of any war crimes is murdered by a Bajoran.
Ah...that was at the very end of the episode--just after Kira learns not to look at all Cardassians under the same lens. The entire point of the episode was Kira's growth beyond anti-Cardassian prejudice.

Her notion seems to be that any Cardassian on Bajor was violating Bajoran sovereignty, and that as such they were legitimate targets if there was an attack underway, but that notion does not seem to extend to the idea that just any Cardassian deserved death. Rather, her notion seems to be, "They shouldn't be here, tough shit if they die in the course of us achieving our objectives in our attack."
Except her line, "He's guilty. They were all guilty."

Frankly, I have yet to be convinced that the Resistance would have refused to smuggle nukes to Cardassia and lay the planet waste if they could have--destroying the Central Command, the Council, and the HQ of the Obsidian Order--on the grounds of Values and Principles.
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Old March 30 2011, 01:01 AM   #494
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
--all of this begs for the question, as Picard asked, "How many people does it take, Admiral...before it becomes wrong, hmm? 1,000? 50,000? A million? How many people does it take, Admiral?"

Where do you draw the line, and say, "I don't care if means the war goes on even longer, and claims more lives on our side, and I don't care if not doing this runs the risk of their defeating us--I am opposed to genocide, and will not do it under any circumstance!"

If the Resistance targeting innocents was morally wrong, but tactically necessary, where do you draw the line between that and what should not be done?
Where do you draw the line between scruff and a beard?
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Old March 30 2011, 05:52 AM   #495
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Kestrel wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
What would an actual Cardassian civilian - meaning, somebody who is not involved with the government or the military, and thus not working as part of the occupation force - even be doing on Bajor in the first place? Not counting family members, of course.
Why aren't we counting family members?
Because they would be expected to be there.

A true Cardassian civilian - one who is not in the government or the military, and is not actually *working* for the occupation - would have no reason to be on Bajor unless he or she was the family member (spouse or child) of someone who was. And even then, it's doubtful. Dukat, for example; as far as we know, his family was back on Cardassia the whole time. If the prefect himself didn't have his family with him, most of the rest of them probably didn't either (although a few did, i.e. "The Darkness and the Light").

So if Kira says they were all guilty, she must have been targeting actual occupation members or their families, nothing more. She wasn't just indulging in racial hatred of all Cardassians.
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