RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,635
Posts: 5,427,612
Members: 24,810
Currently online: 501
Newest member: Rom

TrekToday headlines

Trek Messenger Bag
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

Star Trek Live In Concert In Australia
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Rough Beasts Of Empire
Outstanding 36 25.53%
Above Average 58 41.13%
Average 25 17.73%
Below Average 13 9.22%
Poor 9 6.38%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 25 2011, 12:01 AM   #331
Dancing Doctor
Admiral
 
Dancing Doctor's Avatar
 
Location: At the Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound
View Dancing Doctor's Twitter Profile Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Dancing Doctor
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
I agree--although I must admit my minds a blank as to what Bacco ordered in ZSG.... *sigh*
Based on what I can remember, it was a through checking into the backgrounds of all employees at Utopia Planitia (and possibly everywhere), as well as a tightening of security and more through screening procedures. In regards to the actual attack, she ordered it to be reported as an industrial accident, so that its true nature not be known.

Well, look at his reasons. During the debate, he noted it was because of Klingon...imperialism and expansion. There is also the fact that the Empire is supposed to be the UFP's major ally. Without them, the UFP would basically be on its own.
Ah, I see. I'll have to go back and re-read it now, since I just remember his "The Klingons enslave people. I don't know how much more I can or need to say" comment.

My guess? Gearing up his next campaign for president, preaching that "this is just what I said--our alliance with the Klingons causes other powers to be hostile to us!"
Now that would be interesting.
__________________
‎"Captain, we are being hailed. That is, if you don't mind...if it isn't too intrusive."

Loyal member of the Militant Janeway True Path Devotees
Dancing Doctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 12:04 AM   #332
Dancing Doctor
Admiral
 
Dancing Doctor's Avatar
 
Location: At the Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound
View Dancing Doctor's Twitter Profile Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Dancing Doctor
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

flandry84 wrote: View Post
Ceding planets/sectors to the Typhon pact?
That worked really well with the Cardassian union.
A few things:

1) Bacco ceded several planets to the Cardassians to get them to join the fleet at the Azure Nebula.

2) We'll never really know in regards to the cessions that resulted in the Maquis, since by the time we start to look back at the Cardassians and the Maquis, Dukat kinda came in and took over, before we could see how it would have played out fully.

3) I wasn't seriously suggesting that the Federation cede anything. Here's what I said in full:

Further, I'm not sure there's really anything the Federation *could* do to show the Typhon Pact that they aren't imperialistic expansionists, unless the Federation were willing to surrender several planets and/or sectors. But that would probably just make the Typhon Pact even more suspicious.


Appeasement never works.
I agree with that, completely.
__________________
‎"Captain, we are being hailed. That is, if you don't mind...if it isn't too intrusive."

Loyal member of the Militant Janeway True Path Devotees
Dancing Doctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 01:45 AM   #333
rfmcdpei
Captain
 
rfmcdpei's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
View rfmcdpei's Twitter Profile
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
Good point. Frankly, I believe it undermines any Federation pretentions of ethical behavior when they ally with a culture like the Klingons that engages in open conquest and subjugation of other worlds. I think the original intent in TNG was that the Klingons had become more reformed and enlightened, with the warmongering types being a dissident minority (see "Heart of Glory"). But over the years, writers got so caught up writing the Klingons as Space Vikings/Samurai and playing up their Warrior fetish ad nauseam that they ended up being basically as bloodthirsty and brutal as ever, and it became unclear why the Federation would want to be allied with these savage thugs. I mean, I'm all for not being at war with them, but portraying them as stalwart allies when they're so unreformed in their ways creates a certain cognitive dissonance.
I'd have been so much happier if it had been Ael's successfully reformed Romulan Empire that the Federation had allied with, rather than Gorkon's Klingon Empire: I can relate to the Romulans more. If that makes sense.

(Hmm. Vulcan-Romulan reunification as a way to escape the Klingon alliance?)

All this suggests that the Federation shouldn't be too wary of the Typhon Pact: it can relate to varying extents with most of its neighbours, and can have productive relationships with some. The Klingon Empire, now, is the power most pressured, arguably more surrounded than the Federation and with a major partner that's increasingly skeptical of the Klingons as worthwhile allies. Qo'Nos would have most to lose from a Federation-Typhon Pact detente.
rfmcdpei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 02:00 AM   #334
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I'm sad that I'm late to the party here! Just a few thoughts...

Rush Limborg wrote:
Furthermore, the Romulans will not be "first among equals," if the Tzenkethi have anything to say about it.
Will the Tzenkethi have anything to say about it? They successfully maneuvered events so that Kammemor became Praetor, but that doesn't mean that their every manipulation will be so successful. And it's entirely possible that the Tal Shiar might end up being much better at its counterintelligence function now that Sela is running it instead of someone who's distracted by his constant attempts to become the power behind the throne.

And speaking of the throne -- I wonder if the Romulan monarchy will be restored now that Romulus is (apparently) finally politically stable for the first time since the Emperor was assassinated during the Dominion War?

On that note...the best thing, say, Section 31--or SI, if that "feels" better--can do now is to reveal to its contacts in the Tal Shiar--and, therefore, to the RSE government--that they've been played like a fiddle by the Tzenkethi.
I completely agree; were I the Federation President and made aware of the role of the Tzenkethi in assassinating a Romulan Senator and Romulan Praetor, I'd strongly consider disclosing as much of that information and its verification as I possibly could (without endangering Federation assets on Romulus). (I do say "strongly consider" because there might be some virtue in keeping that as a trump card close to the chest for a while yet, but I digress.)

But what makes you think that either Section 31 or Starfleet Intelligence or the Federation Security Agency (the Federation's civilian intelligence agency -- think of it as the CIA to Starfleet Intelligence's Defense Intelligence Agency) has any clue of the Tzenkethi role in the fall of Tal'Aura's government?

Romulans, being a proud people, will NOT take kindly to another race--ESPECIALLY an "ally"--interfering in their political affairs in that manner! Yet another reason that it is in Kammemor's best interests to break away from the Pact.
Well, that depends, really. If I'm Praetor of the Romulan Star Empire, I'm inclined to say that it's in the Star Empire's best interests to expose the Tezkethi government's actions to the rest of the Pact and get the Tzenkethi Coalition expelled from the Pact. That would allow Romulus to retain the advantages of Pact membership while removing a rival for dominance within the pact who interfered with its internal affairs.

The Klingons may be...unsanitary to the Romulans, but at least they do not believe in "behind-the scenes" plots.
Tell that to Klingon Imperial Intelligence.

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
But remember the entire point of the Pact: To counter the influence of the Federation.
<SNIP>
Basically, overall, I think it's not so much "the Pact is out to get the Federation", it's more "the Pact is convinced to a paranoid extreme that the Federation is out to get them" - and they're making their stand. Maybe they'll get the Federation first! The Federation needs to convince them that they're wrong to see it in these terms...
Brilliant post, Nasat!

(Though I would say that for at least the Breen and the Tholians, their hostility is at least somewhat more active than the others' -- enough that they wanted to actively undermine Federation technological superiority and social stability without actually provoking a war, hence the theft of the slipstream drive and decision to drive a wedge between the Federation and Andor.)

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Now, one could argue that the Tholian's "We Will Bury You"-type rant in that book is not representative of the Pact as a whole. I grant that. However--this begs for the question: has the Pact disavowed these claims in an official manner?
Has the Pact's Board of Governors even heard Tezrene's words?

Nonetheless...we simply cannot assume that the Pact simply wants to engage in Peaceful Coexistence. We can certainly hope for that--but the more aggresive words and actions of the Tholians and the Breen should, at the very least, give us pause.
Certainly. But it's important not to paint the Pact in Hitlerian terms, too. If I were a Federation Councillor, I would argue that we shouldn't treat the Pact as though it's a mere continuation of prior enemy regimes; we should treat it as its own unique entity, still feeling its way around, still trying to figure out how it's going to function, still swayable one way or the other.

While it's pretty obvious that amongst the Breen and the Tholians, there's a strong anti-Federation sentiment that has achieved enough sway to initiate actions against the Federation that wouldn't lead to war, it's not clear at all yet which factions will ultimately dominate the Pact as a whole. Certainly the rise of the Kammemor government and the Gorn's historic diplomacy suggests that the moderates may yet win the day there.

Hope for the best--but prepare for the worst. And if the worst should happen...Kamemor had better be prepared to chose on which side of the line in the sand she will stand.
There's a such thing as getting deeply premature when you start making proclamations about people needing to "choose sides" if "the worst should happen." It would be absolutely disastrous for the Federation to issue a warning like that.

You also pointed out the hypocrisy in the Romulans' making these claims about Imperialism. Might I also point out that the Federation has never tried to "assimilate" these other powers. All members have, of course, became such of their own free will.
Well, yes and no. Yes, every Federation Member State has become such by its own free will. But the stated intention of the Federation is to persuade every culture it encounters into adopting its values (when they conflict) and joining the Federation. Eddington was not wrong when he claimed in "For the Cause" that the Federation was sending aide to the Cardassians at least in part because it wanted the Cardassian Union to one day take its rightful place on the Federation Council.

You might draw a comparison to globalism and the spread of American culture through commercial pressures today. The United States is not out to conquer the People's Republic of China, but I can't say I blame the average Chinese person if he feels threatened by the fact that his ancient, beautiful culture is now host to a so many McDonalds franchises.

That's not to say that the Federation is imperialistic in the traditional sense. It's probably the most benign form of "cultural imperialism" imaginable -- and I'd argue that even that term is pushing it, since the Federation seems to hold to a rather loose set of values that allow many difficult cultures to flourish within its borders. But let's not pretend that the Federation agenda is not to convince everyone it meets to join the party, either.

Now...I could understand their fears being due to the fact that the UFP is big. However, a look at Star Charts shows that the Tholians and the Breen are not exactly innocent in that regard.
Of course not. No one's claiming that the Tholians and Breen are intellectually consistent. They're saying that they have a point about the Federation even as they're blind about their own behavior -- which is often the case with any culture. No culture is perfect, but all cultures have an easier time seeing other cultures' flaws than their own.

Finally...if it truly is due to a (real or percieved) fear of UFP Imperialism...then I wonder, what would be the UFP's solution, to dissuade their fears, and make them learn to love us?
Well, that's just the point, though: They're threatened by the fact that the Federation wants them to "love us." There's really nothing the Federation can do to stop that.

Sometimes, hatahs gonna hate. The best you can do is to avoid provoking overtly hostile actions; you can't always expect to be able to convince people to love you and join the party. Let the angry dog eat its bone and it won't try to bite you, even if it growls a bit.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
It would seem that, considering how accomodation would be taken as a sign of weakness and encourage their hitting the UFP--and how a strong defense would make them fearful, and hit the UFP--

Either way, the UFP gets hit.
Not necessarily. That kind of conclusion, I think, is ultimately where the two sides in this debate part ways.

Again, the thing to remember is that the Typhon Pact has many different factions within it vying for dominance -- both within its members and between its members. There are many, many different scenarios that could play out.

The Federation may have to give up the idea of ever getting, say, the Tholians to "love them," and certainly the Federation needs to avoid showing weakness. But that doesn't mean that demonstrating strength will be better. Sometimes, the best choice is to do nothing. When nothing happens, tempers have a habit of cooling, after all.

"They will hit us" is not a given. That's the issue.

flandry84 wrote: View Post
Ceding planets/sectors to the Typhon pact?
That worked really well with the Cardassian union.
Appeasement never works.
There's no evidence the Typhon Pact has any territorial designs upon Federation worlds.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 02:53 AM   #335
Rush Limborg
Vice Admiral
 
Rush Limborg's Avatar
 
Location: The EIB Network
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Sci wrote: View Post
I'm sad that I'm late to the party here! Just a few thoughts...

Rush Limborg wrote:
Furthermore, the Romulans will not be "first among equals," if the Tzenkethi have anything to say about it.
Will the Tzenkethi have anything to say about it? They successfully maneuvered events so that Kammemor became Praetor, but that doesn't mean that their every manipulation will be so successful. And it's entirely possible that the Tal Shiar might end up being much better at its counterintelligence function now that Sela is running it instead of someone who's distracted by his constant attempts to become the power behind the throne.
So you have confidence in Sela's abilities? Because quite a few fans (I'm not one of them, I'm just saying...) are under the impression that she's incompetent--and emotionally unstable.

On that note...the best thing, say, Section 31--or SI, if that "feels" better--can do now is to reveal to its contacts in the Tal Shiar--and, therefore, to the RSE government--that they've been played like a fiddle by the Tzenkethi.
I completely agree; were I the Federation President and made aware of the role of the Tzenkethi in assassinating a Romulan Senator and Romulan Praetor, I'd strongly consider disclosing as much of that information and its verification as I possibly could (without endangering Federation assets on Romulus). (I do say "strongly consider" because there might be some virtue in keeping that as a trump card close to the chest for a while yet, but I digress.)
(Whistle) Well! About time you and I agree on something....

But what makes you think that either Section 31 or Starfleet Intelligence or the Federation Security Agency (the Federation's civilian intelligence agency -- think of it as the CIA to Starfleet Intelligence's Defense Intelligence Agency) has any clue of the Tzenkethi role in the fall of Tal'Aura's government?
Section 31? Knowing them, I'd find it hard to believe they don't have info on it. SI, I'm not so sure. At the very least...they'd view all these convenient events surrounding the RSE and IRS with a lot of suspicion, and investigate it promptly.

(BTW, isn't FSA more akin to the FBI or NSA? I certainly haven't heard of FSA working outside the UFP's borders--and in our time, the FBI and NSA are charged with intel within US borders--the CIA is strictly for outside matters, wacko conspiracy theories to the contrary notwithstanding.)

Well, that depends, really. If I'm Praetor of the Romulan Star Empire, I'm inclined to say that it's in the Star Empire's best interests to expose the Tezkethi government's actions to the rest of the Pact and get the Tzenkethi Coalition expelled from the Pact. That would allow Romulus to retain the advantages of Pact membership while removing a rival for dominance within the pact who interfered with its internal affairs.
Yes, possibly. I can easily see why news of the Coalition's scheming would cause all the other members to throw them out. Who knows? It might even become cause for all the members to start viewing each other with suspicion--Are they manipulating us?--and with any luck...cause the Pact to implode.

Frankly...for that reason, I would suggest that would also be grounds for Kammemor to pull out of the Pact.

Tell that to Klingon Imperial Intelligence.
Well, I.I. isn't exactly on par with S.I./31, O.O., or Tal Shiar...

Brilliant post, Nasat!

(Though I would say that for at least the Breen and the Tholians, their hostility is at least somewhat more active than the others' -- enough that they wanted to actively undermine Federation technological superiority and social stability without actually provoking a war, hence the theft of the slipstream drive and decision to drive a wedge between the Federation and Andor.)
Sci, this agreement between you and me is frightening. I wonder if the devil's getting frostbite right now....

Has the Pact's Board of Governors even heard Tezrene's words?
Bacco certainly did. Frankly, for diplomatic purposes, she'd almost certainly point it out to the Pact, and see if they'd disavow the speech for the sake of peace.

Certainly. But it's important not to paint the Pact in Hitlerian terms, too. If I were a Federation Councillor, I would argue that we shouldn't treat the Pact as though it's a mere continuation of prior enemy regimes; we should treat it as its own unique entity, still feeling its way around, still trying to figure out how it's going to function, still swayable one way or the other.
It's still a conglomerate of those "prior regimes", regardless of structure. Bad blood is bad blood, regardless of the container.

While it's pretty obvious that amongst the Breen and the Tholians, there's a strong anti-Federation sentiment that has achieved enough sway to initiate actions against the Federation that wouldn't lead to war, it's not clear at all yet which factions will ultimately dominate the Pact as a whole. Certainly the rise of the Kammemor government and the Gorn's historic diplomacy suggests that the moderates may yet win the day there.
I wouldn't count on it. In the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Iranian Revolution, and now I fear the Egyptian Revolution (though, despite myself, I'm still clinging on to hope for an exception to the rule, but not much)--the radicals seized control, leaving the moderates cowering. This was for the simple reason that radicalism breeds vehemence.

I'm not saying the moderates have no chance. Certainly, there could well be strength in numbers. It all depends on which wave of emotion is stonger--and of course, which one is more "backed up" with assertiveness.

There's a such thing as getting deeply premature when you start making proclamations about people needing to "choose sides" if "the worst should happen." It would be absolutely disastrous for the Federation to issue a warning like that.
I never suggested the UFP should do so. I'm simply engaging in political analysis.

Well, yes and no. Yes, every Federation Member State has become such by its own free will. But the stated intention of the Federation is to persuade every culture it encounters into adopting its values (when they conflict) and joining the Federation. Eddington was not wrong when he claimed in "For the Cause" that the Federation was sending aide to the Cardassians at least in part because it wanted the Cardassian Union to one day take its rightful place on the Federation Council.

You might draw a comparison to globalism and the spread of American culture through commercial pressures today. The United States is not out to conquer the People's Republic of China, but I can't say I blame the average Chinese person if he feels threatened by the fact that his ancient, beautiful culture is now host to a so many McDonalds franchises.

That's not to say that the Federation is imperialistic in the traditional sense. It's probably the most benign form of "cultural imperialism" imaginable -- and I'd argue that even that term is pushing it, since the Federation seems to hold to a rather loose set of values that allow many difficult cultures to flourish within its borders. But let's not pretend that the Federation agenda is not to convince everyone it meets to join the party, either.
In the case of Chinese McDonalds', the Chinese government is just as culpable in that spread of ideas as American Culture is.

Of course not. No one's claiming that the Tholians and Breen are intellectually consistent. They're saying that they have a point about the Federation even as they're blind about their own behavior -- which is often the case with any culture. No culture is perfect, but all cultures have an easier time seeing other cultures' flaws than their own.
Well, it's certainly bitterly amusing that they expect the UFP to acknowledge its own failings, while refusing to admit their own....


Well, that's just the point, though: They're threatened by the fact that the Federation wants them to "love us." There's really nothing the Federation can do to stop that.

Sometimes, hatahs gonna hate. The best you can do is to avoid provoking overtly hostile actions; you can't always expect to be able to convince people to love you and join the party. Let the angry dog eat its bone and it won't try to bite you, even if it growls a bit.
Which assumes there won't be something to distabilize the peace other than UFP actions. In that case, again, preperation for conflict is neccessary.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
It would seem that, considering how accomodation would be taken as a sign of weakness and encourage their hitting the UFP--and how a strong defense would make them fearful, and hit the UFP--

Either way, the UFP gets hit.
Not necessarily. That kind of conclusion, I think, is ultimately where the two sides in this debate part ways.

Again, the thing to remember is that the Typhon Pact has many different factions within it vying for dominance -- both within its members and between its members. There are many, many different scenarios that could play out.

The Federation may have to give up the idea of ever getting, say, the Tholians to "love them," and certainly the Federation needs to avoid showing weakness. But that doesn't mean that demonstrating strength will be better. Sometimes, the best choice is to do nothing. When nothing happens, tempers have a habit of cooling, after all.

"They will hit us" is not a given. That's the issue.
Again, doing nothing is treading on thin ice, as well. Should there be a circumstance, not under the Federation's control, which breaks down the tense situation--the Federation's lack of stength would not be an asset.

flandry84 wrote: View Post
Ceding planets/sectors to the Typhon pact?
That worked really well with the Cardassian union.
Appeasement never works.
There's no evidence the Typhon Pact has any territorial designs upon Federation worlds.
Well, I could easily see them considering such as a "cure" to Federation Imperialism.
__________________
"I have been wounded but not yet slain. I shall lie here and bleed awhile. Then I shall rise and fight again."

"Forget it, Jake...it's Chinatown."
Rush Limborg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 02:58 AM   #336
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Sci wrote: View Post
And it's entirely possible that the Tal Shiar might end up being much better at its counterintelligence function now that Sela is running it instead of someone who's distracted by his constant attempts to become the power behind the throne.
Yeah, but... outside of the novel The Romulan Strategem, has Sela ever actually succeeded in any of her plans? (She did succeed in killing Rehaek, barely, but that wasn't her plan, it was someone else's.)
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 03:11 AM   #337
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Section 31? Knowing them, I'd find it hard to believe they don't have info on it.
Well its not like they have what was probably their primary intelligence source in Romulan space any more, what with Koval being dead for the past 4 years.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
And it's entirely possible that the Tal Shiar might end up being much better at its counterintelligence function now that Sela is running it instead of someone who's distracted by his constant attempts to become the power behind the throne.
Yeah, but... outside of the novel The Romulan Strategem, has Sela ever actually succeeded in any of her plans? (She did succeed in killing Rehaek, barely, but that wasn't her plan, it was someone else's.)
Yeah, but those times she was going against the main characters of which ever TV series and/or book series she was in and her plans were always MAJOR game changers so of course she was going to fail those times.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 03:34 AM   #338
Corran Horn
Vice Admiral
 
Corran Horn's Avatar
 
Location: I-L
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I found it funny someone used the phrase 'zero sum game' in "Seize the Fire".
__________________
"I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do drugs. I play video games, which I think is a far superior addiction to any of those other ones. "
Corran Horn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 05:04 AM   #339
rfmcdpei
Captain
 
rfmcdpei's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
View rfmcdpei's Twitter Profile
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
[O]utside of the novel The Romulan Strategem, has Sela ever actually succeeded in any of her plans? (She did succeed in killing Rehaek, barely, but that wasn't her plan, it was someone else's.)
Yeah, but those times she was going against the main characters of which ever TV series and/or book series she was in and her plans were always MAJOR game changers so of course she was going to fail those times.
It's also worth mentioning the Romulan plans tend towards the game-changingly grandiose and ruthless in the first place, engaging in cunning and treacherous military maneuvers and sub rosa intelligence plots, testing and deploying superweapons, all with the goal of utterly transforming the balance of utterly crushing Romulus' enemies and establishing the Star Empire as the galaxy's dominant player. We've seen it on the TV shows, with the attempted invasion of Vulcan and the arming of Duras' side in the civil war; we've seen it in Nemesis, with the deployment of the thalaron projector as a first strike weapon against Earth; we've seen it in Duaneverse novels, with mechanically-augmented telepathy and sunkiller bombs; et cetera.

With this sort of paradigm in intelligence and military affairs, would Sela's failures at making the radically game-changing success all aspire for necessarily mark her as incompetent? If anything, she did come quite close to success, and would have done quite well if not for our intrepid heroes.
rfmcdpei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 05:11 AM   #340
rfmcdpei
Captain
 
rfmcdpei's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
View rfmcdpei's Twitter Profile
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Section 31? Knowing them, I'd find it hard to believe they don't have info on it. SI, I'm not so sure. At the very least...they'd view all these convenient events surrounding the RSE and IRS with a lot of suspicion, and investigate it promptly.
Suspect, sure; try to investigate, maybe; succeed? Not necessarily at all. A friend of mine once worked for Marine intelligence in South Korea, and he made the point that intelligence in North Korea is almost entirely inferential, based on suspicions and plausibilities.

If it's difficult to get any hard intelligence on a North Korea that shares a culture and a frontier with a highly advanced and competent nation-state that has the world's superpower as patron, how much more difficult would it be to penetrate xenophobic and sophisticated non-Federation polities like the Romulans, never mind the Tzenkethi?

Section 31 has a mystique among us fans because of its demonstrated ruthlessness and competence. There's no reason to think it's actually the all-knowing organization it would like to be.

I wouldn't count on it. In the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Iranian Revolution, and now I fear the Egyptian Revolution (though, despite myself, I'm still clinging on to hope for an exception to the rule, but not much)--the radicals seized control, leaving the moderates cowering. This was for the simple reason that radicalism breeds vehemence.
This would be a relevant point if the Typhon Pact was product of some sort of multi-civilizational revolution. It's not: the Typhon Pact is, in fact, a very measured and careful compromise by a half-dozen reasonably stable civilizations which have no interest in letting things get out of control. The Romulans and the Tzenkethi, we know from RBOE, are not blindly trusting in the good faith of their new allies; they're carefully watching everything.
rfmcdpei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 05:27 AM   #341
rfmcdpei
Captain
 
rfmcdpei's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
View rfmcdpei's Twitter Profile
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Valeris wrote: View Post
Appeasement never works.
I agree with that, completely.
I'll be controversial and say that it depends on a case-by-case basis (what's at stake, what's plausible, what enforcement will there be of the new status quo). If there are long-standing problems that can be resolved without war and which can produce guaranteed settlements, why not?
rfmcdpei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 05:47 AM   #342
Dancing Doctor
Admiral
 
Dancing Doctor's Avatar
 
Location: At the Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound
View Dancing Doctor's Twitter Profile Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Dancing Doctor
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Valeris wrote: View Post
Appeasement never works.
I agree with that, completely.
I'll be controversial and say that it depends on a case-by-case basis (what's at stake, what's plausible, what enforcement will there be of the new status quo). If there are long-standing problems that can be resolved without war and which can produce guaranteed settlements, why not?
There's a difference between appeasement and what you're describing.

What you're describing is a careful, thought-out, most likely mutually beneficial agreement/negotiation.

Appeasement, on the other hand, is the giving in to another power in the hopes that they'll accept it and not cause further trouble.
__________________
‎"Captain, we are being hailed. That is, if you don't mind...if it isn't too intrusive."

Loyal member of the Militant Janeway True Path Devotees
Dancing Doctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 07:12 AM   #343
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Will the Tzenkethi have anything to say about it? They successfully maneuvered events so that Kammemor became Praetor, but that doesn't mean that their every manipulation will be so successful. And it's entirely possible that the Tal Shiar might end up being much better at its counterintelligence function now that Sela is running it instead of someone who's distracted by his constant attempts to become the power behind the throne.
So you have confidence in Sela's abilities? Because quite a few fans (I'm not one of them, I'm just saying...) are under the impression that she's incompetent--and emotionally unstable.
I don't think there's enough data to know. For my money, I think if she were that incompetent, she would have been assassinated by a rival a long time ago, but who knows what happens from here? It's possible that simply having a Tal Shiar Chairman who's actually running the Tal Shiar rather than scheming to take over the government will mean that the middle levels of the Tal Shiar infrastructure will function better, even if the Chairman herself isn't the best out there.

On that note...the best thing, say, Section 31--or SI, if that "feels" better--can do now is to reveal to its contacts in the Tal Shiar--and, therefore, to the RSE government--that they've been played like a fiddle by the Tzenkethi.
I completely agree; were I the Federation President and made aware of the role of the Tzenkethi in assassinating a Romulan Senator and Romulan Praetor, I'd strongly consider disclosing as much of that information and its verification as I possibly could (without endangering Federation assets on Romulus). (I do say "strongly consider" because there might be some virtue in keeping that as a trump card close to the chest for a while yet, but I digress.)
(Whistle) Well! About time you and I agree on something....
It happens every now and then.

But what makes you think that either Section 31 or Starfleet Intelligence or the Federation Security Agency (the Federation's civilian intelligence agency -- think of it as the CIA to Starfleet Intelligence's Defense Intelligence Agency) has any clue of the Tzenkethi role in the fall of Tal'Aura's government?
Section 31? Knowing them, I'd find it hard to believe they don't have info on it.
Why? There's no evidence that anyone detected the Tzenkethi's operation whatsoever. Further, Section 31's primary mole on Romulus was former Tal Shiar Chairman Koval -- who, in Section 31: Rogue by Michael A. Martin and Andy Mangels, was playing Section 31 like a fiddle just as much as the Tzenkethi played the Romulans, and who was later killed after the Shinzon coup. Really, between the way Koval screwed them over in Rogue and the way the Klingons screwed them over in "Divergence"/"Affliction," I'm not convinced that Section 31 is actually particularly competent at foreign espionage.

SI, I'm not so sure. At the very least...they'd view all these convenient events surrounding the RSE and IRS with a lot of suspicion, and investigate it promptly.
Would they? What kinds of evidence of their actions did the Tzenkethi actually leave?

(BTW, isn't FSA more akin to the FBI or NSA? I certainly haven't heard of FSA working outside the UFP's borders--and in our time, the FBI and NSA are charged with intel within US borders--the CIA is strictly for outside matters, wacko conspiracy theories to the contrary notwithstanding.)
The novel Zero Sum Game establishes that the Federation Security Agency is the Federation's civilian intelligence agency and that there is some rivalry between FSA and SI. There is no evidence that either one has exclusively counterintelligence and exclusively foreign intelligence responsibilities.

Well, that depends, really. If I'm Praetor of the Romulan Star Empire, I'm inclined to say that it's in the Star Empire's best interests to expose the Tezkethi government's actions to the rest of the Pact and get the Tzenkethi Coalition expelled from the Pact. That would allow Romulus to retain the advantages of Pact membership while removing a rival for dominance within the pact who interfered with its internal affairs.
Yes, possibly. I can easily see why news of the Coalition's scheming would cause all the other members to throw them out. Who knows? It might even become cause for all the members to start viewing each other with suspicion--Are they manipulating us?--and with any luck...cause the Pact to implode.
Possibly. It's just as likely that they'd all expel the Coalition and then try to draw themselves even closer, though. After all, if they start sharing a lot more personnel and a lot more resources, it will be all that much harder for any one Member State to engage in any covert operations in another's territory.

Frankly...for that reason, I would suggest that would also be grounds for Kammemor to pull out of the Pact.
I think that unlikely. For better or for worse, the Star Empire has chosen its course, made its commitments, and now relies upon the Pact's help to function.

Has the Pact's Board of Governors even heard Tezrene's words?
Bacco certainly did. Frankly, for diplomatic purposes, she'd almost certainly point it out to the Pact, and see if they'd disavow the speech for the sake of peace.
I don't think so. To me, it's so obvious that Tezrene is speaking personally, out of anger, rather than speaking for the Pact itself, that it's entirely plausible that Bacco might never inform the Board of Governors of her words that night. Especially since she might view such correspondence as making her look weak.

Certainly. But it's important not to paint the Pact in Hitlerian terms, too. If I were a Federation Councillor, I would argue that we shouldn't treat the Pact as though it's a mere continuation of prior enemy regimes; we should treat it as its own unique entity, still feeling its way around, still trying to figure out how it's going to function, still swayable one way or the other.
It's still a conglomerate of those "prior regimes", regardless of structure. Bad blood is bad blood, regardless of the container.
I was referring to really old hostile regimes, such as the Third Reich, not to the Typhon Pact Member States' governments.

While it's pretty obvious that amongst the Breen and the Tholians, there's a strong anti-Federation sentiment that has achieved enough sway to initiate actions against the Federation that wouldn't lead to war, it's not clear at all yet which factions will ultimately dominate the Pact as a whole. Certainly the rise of the Kammemor government and the Gorn's historic diplomacy suggests that the moderates may yet win the day there.
I wouldn't count on it. In the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Iranian Revolution, and now I fear the Egyptian Revolution (though, despite myself, I'm still clinging on to hope for an exception to the rule, but not much)--the radicals seized control, leaving the moderates cowering. This was for the simple reason that radicalism breeds vehemence.
1. What radicals have seized power in Egypt? (I mean, except insofar as every political faction in Egypt is vaguely radical-ish from an American POV, even the "Military should run everything and keep getting checks from the United States and keep the peace with Israel" faction.) And what makes that faction radical?

2. The Typhon Pact isn't the product of a revolution. None of its internal governments have been overthrown, and none of its member states are facing a popular rebellion. It's really just not a good comparison.

Well, yes and no. Yes, every Federation Member State has become such by its own free will. But the stated intention of the Federation is to persuade every culture it encounters into adopting its values (when they conflict) and joining the Federation. Eddington was not wrong when he claimed in "For the Cause" that the Federation was sending aide to the Cardassians at least in part because it wanted the Cardassian Union to one day take its rightful place on the Federation Council.

You might draw a comparison to globalism and the spread of American culture through commercial pressures today. The United States is not out to conquer the People's Republic of China, but I can't say I blame the average Chinese person if he feels threatened by the fact that his ancient, beautiful culture is now host to a so many McDonalds franchises.

That's not to say that the Federation is imperialistic in the traditional sense. It's probably the most benign form of "cultural imperialism" imaginable -- and I'd argue that even that term is pushing it, since the Federation seems to hold to a rather loose set of values that allow many difficult cultures to flourish within its borders. But let's not pretend that the Federation agenda is not to convince everyone it meets to join the party, either.
In the case of Chinese McDonalds', the Chinese government is just as culpable in that spread of ideas as American Culture is.
Yeah, but is Average Joe Chinese really going to care about that? He sees a foreign culture infiltrating his own culture, and he may well get angry about that and blame the Americans, irrelevant of his own government's complicity.

And besides, the point is not that any other government doesn't share responsibility, the point is that the culture which is resented for something is not entirely innocent of the things it is resented for. The point is not that the Chinese government is not complicit in the Americanization of Chinese culture, the point is that American culture is trying to spread itself into foreign cultures. The point is not that governments that chose to join the Federation are not responsible for their choices, the point is that the Federation is out to persuade all foreign governments to adopt its democratic values and join the UFP.

Of course not. No one's claiming that the Tholians and Breen are intellectually consistent. They're saying that they have a point about the Federation even as they're blind about their own behavior -- which is often the case with any culture. No culture is perfect, but all cultures have an easier time seeing other cultures' flaws than their own.
Well, it's certainly bitterly amusing that they expect the UFP to acknowledge its own failings, while refusing to admit their own....
Welcome to nationalism. I mean, at the end of the day, isn't that exactly what you're doing with the Federation and its enemies -- expecting them to own up to their failings but not making a similar demand of the Federation?

That doesn't make you, or any other pro-Federation POV, bad. It just means that we all have our blind spots.

Well, that's just the point, though: They're threatened by the fact that the Federation wants them to "love us." There's really nothing the Federation can do to stop that.

Sometimes, hatahs gonna hate. The best you can do is to avoid provoking overtly hostile actions; you can't always expect to be able to convince people to love you and join the party. Let the angry dog eat its bone and it won't try to bite you, even if it growls a bit.
Which assumes there won't be something to distabilize the peace other than UFP actions. In that case, again, preperation for conflict is neccessary.
No. Basic readiness is necessary -- the basic readiness which should always be maintained. But there's a difference between basic readiness and actively preparing for a war. There's a huge difference between the levels of mobilization that entails, and if you're going to avoid provoking the other side, it's important not to mobilize on that level. At least, not so long as the other side isn't mobilizing on that level, at any rate.

Again, the thing to remember is that the Typhon Pact has many different factions within it vying for dominance -- both within its members and between its members. There are many, many different scenarios that could play out.

The Federation may have to give up the idea of ever getting, say, the Tholians to "love them," and certainly the Federation needs to avoid showing weakness. But that doesn't mean that demonstrating strength will be better. Sometimes, the best choice is to do nothing. When nothing happens, tempers have a habit of cooling, after all.

"They will hit us" is not a given. That's the issue.
Again, doing nothing is treading on thin ice, as well. Should there be a circumstance, not under the Federation's control, which breaks down the tense situation--the Federation's lack of stength would not be an asset.
Again, that will depend on the situation. Remember, the Typhon Pact Member States would have to undergo major mobilization if they wanted a conflict, too. Neither side has the resources to successfully wage a war right now, and if either side tried to mobilize those kinds of resources, the other side would know.

That means that neither side has the ability to escalate things without the other side being able to nullify their advantage. And it also means that so long as both sides desire stability, neither side has any particular incentive to escalate things.

Again, don't err on the side of, "They're going to hit us." That's paranoia and it's not backed up by facts. The other guy is holding a stick that's just as big as yours, and he can't pick up a bigger stick without you seeing. Keep watching him, and keep your stick ready, but don't move to hit him and don't move to pick up a bigger stick yourself unless he starts picking up a bigger stick first. You may end up staring at each other over the fence, but you'll probably both be able to keep from hitting each other.

flandry84 wrote: View Post
Ceding planets/sectors to the Typhon pact?
That worked really well with the Cardassian union.
Appeasement never works.
There's no evidence the Typhon Pact has any territorial designs upon Federation worlds.
Well, I could easily see them considering such as a "cure" to Federation Imperialism.
There is no evidence that any Typhon Pact member states have any designs upon Federation worlds.

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
I wouldn't count on it. In the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Iranian Revolution, and now I fear the Egyptian Revolution (though, despite myself, I'm still clinging on to hope for an exception to the rule, but not much)--the radicals seized control, leaving the moderates cowering. This was for the simple reason that radicalism breeds vehemence.
This would be a relevant point if the Typhon Pact was product of some sort of multi-civilizational revolution. It's not: the Typhon Pact is, in fact, a very measured and careful compromise by a half-dozen reasonably stable civilizations which have no interest in letting things get out of control. The Romulans and the Tzenkethi, we know from RBOE, are not blindly trusting in the good faith of their new allies; they're carefully watching everything.
Exactly.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 07:06 PM   #344
flandry84
Captain
 
flandry84's Avatar
 
Location: Sunshine cottage,Lollipop lane,Latveria
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

While it is lovely to hear everyone advocating peaceful coexistence and the recognition of the TP's aspirations it seems everyone is forgetting one thing.
In the opening pages of ZSG,yhe first book to carry the TP banner,the TP inserted a cloaked Romulan warbird into Sector 001,there to facilitate espionage,sabotage and murder on a UFP facility.The very first act we've seen by the TP was an act of war.Fact.
The one problem that I've had from the start has been the roster of the TP itself.It just seems unbalanced,too weighted in favour of old "threat races".Perhaps as the TP's influence and scope grows they might gain some respectability and credence but so far I find the TP hard to accept as anything but a threat.

All that said I would love to see the TP attempt to win the hearts and minds of the Cardassian people.Set Garak loose on them.
__________________
Bah!
flandry84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25 2011, 07:12 PM   #345
Dancing Doctor
Admiral
 
Dancing Doctor's Avatar
 
Location: At the Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound
View Dancing Doctor's Twitter Profile Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Dancing Doctor
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

While I disagree with the assertion that "everyone" is advocating peaceful coexistence with the Typhon Pact, I do agree that the Federation and its allies should be wary of the Typhon Pact.
__________________
‎"Captain, we are being hailed. That is, if you don't mind...if it isn't too intrusive."

Loyal member of the Militant Janeway True Path Devotees
Dancing Doctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
ds9relaunch, reviewpoll_v1, typhon pact

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:39 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.