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Old January 22 2011, 05:34 AM   #31
Gul Re'jal
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Whoa! Brenok sent Laran into harm's way without even telling Jarol he was going to do it! Brenok may not have risked their friendship before--but now it really could be at risk because now he's put Jarol's only child in mortal danger.
He knows she'd try to stop him and he'd have to pull rank again. He thinks this way is better. If he's right, that's another matter.
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
As for Toral, I would not say he has malicious prejudice. That said, I can't say I wholly believe the idea that he wasn't making "species" judgments, given certain things that he said and did. Either that or he just doesn't know how not to come off like he is (and I suspect Federation citizens are quite sensitive to such things and would notice--which would not help with the obvious trust issues). I don't want to go into it here, but I can explain what about Toral's comments would've been a very bad thing for a cop in the US to say during a traffic stop!
Do you mean that he assumed the Hideki was stolen? Well, it was outside Cardassian territory, not so close to any former-Fed colony and he expected to see Cardassians inside. It wouldn't occur to him that there would be anyone else at the helm and when he saw a human, he assumed the guy had stolen a Cardassian ship. I'm not saying it justifies him, but that's what he thought.
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
How come Toral has 3 glinns? I count Lorrun, Tassar, and Korel...
Korel is his aide, Glinn Grade Two. The others are heads of departments, Grade One.
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Oh, and when you say Korel "purrs," exactly what kind of sound are you referring to? Does he sound like a cat?
A kind of murmur. I tried to avoid a word that would have negative or rude connotations and it came out funny in the end A bit like a cat, yes.
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Old January 22 2011, 05:44 AM   #32
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

Gul Re'jal wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Whoa! Brenok sent Laran into harm's way without even telling Jarol he was going to do it! Brenok may not have risked their friendship before--but now it really could be at risk because now he's put Jarol's only child in mortal danger.
He knows she'd try to stop him and he'd have to pull rank again. He thinks this way is better. If he's right, that's another matter.
While I'd hate to see this destroy their friendship...I think this could do it.

Do you mean that he assumed the Hideki was stolen? Well, it was outside Cardassian territory, not so close to any former-Fed colony and he expected to see Cardassians inside. It wouldn't occur to him that there would be anyone else at the helm and when he saw a human, he assumed the guy had stolen a Cardassian ship. I'm not saying it justifies him, but that's what he thought.
Yes. There is, unfortunately, a history of cops in the US deciding to pull people over because they thought a person with that appearance could not legitimately be driving that car. It actually happened to my boss on multiple occasions, and I believe him, when he talks about it.

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
How come Toral has 3 glinns? I count Lorrun, Tassar, and Korel...
Korel is his aide, Glinn Grade Two. The others are heads of departments, Grade One.
I see...I had never seen more than 2 on any of your ships before (either the Damar or the Roumar), so I got confused.
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Old January 22 2011, 01:25 PM   #33
Gul Re'jal
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Yes. There is, unfortunately, a history of cops in the US deciding to pull people over because they thought a person with that appearance could not legitimately be driving that car. It actually happened to my boss on multiple occasions, and I believe him, when he talks about it.
That's not nice indeed
But that's not how Toral thought. It didn't occur to him that this human was a Cardassian citizen, he thought it was a Federation citizen. In Cardassian property. The Cardassians don't give away their property

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
I see...I had never seen more than 2 on any of your ships before (either the Damar or the Roumar), so I got confused.
In the Shadow story there were 3 glinns aboard the Damar: Ya'val, Karama and Zamarran.
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Old January 22 2011, 06:42 PM   #34
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

Gul Re'jal wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Yes. There is, unfortunately, a history of cops in the US deciding to pull people over because they thought a person with that appearance could not legitimately be driving that car. It actually happened to my boss on multiple occasions, and I believe him, when he talks about it.
That's not nice indeed
Thankfully my boss is the kind of person to see the humor even in awkward incidents--especially because he's the kind of person who always seems to think of the right thing to say at the right time, and he can make someone squirm (even a cop!) if they try something like that. So there's always a funny part of the story to tell; he doesn't tell the story to be bitter but rather because he's proud of whatever "zinger" he got off. But I still thought it wasn't nice at all, when he said that had been done to him--and sad to know that such things really do happen.

In his case, the cop didn't say what they suspected, but it was very, very, VERY clear that they did not actually have a reason for pulling him over other than prejudice.

But that's not how Toral thought. It didn't occur to him that this human was a Cardassian citizen, he thought it was a Federation citizen. In Cardassian property. The Cardassians don't give away their property
That's what I meant when I said that Toral probably wasn't experiencing malicious prejudice. It's more like he doesn't really know how to watch himself to avoid the more subconscious types of prejudice. He's not the kind (I don't think) who would use a racial slur or commit obvious forms of abuse the way we used to hear about Cardassian soldiers doing. But sometimes the more subtle kinds of prejudice take more effort to get rid of, and the fact that he forgets there are non-Cardassian citizens of the Union does show that he still experiences a form of bias. It's not the "I want to kill all those ______'s" type of bias, but it's still something to work past.

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
I see...I had never seen more than 2 on any of your ships before (either the Damar or the Roumar), so I got confused.
In the Shadow story there were 3 glinns aboard the Damar: Ya'val, Karama and Zamarran.
Ohh...I never noticed that Ya'val was a glinn.

Who knows...maybe I stopped counting after I saw Karama and Zamarran, since in my own stories there are usually only two who report to one gul.



BTW...why hasn't Aladar gotten a promotion? It sounds like his responsibilities have really increased...
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Old January 23 2011, 02:25 AM   #35
Gul Re'jal
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
That's what I meant when I said that Toral probably wasn't experiencing malicious prejudice. It's more like he doesn't really know how to watch himself to avoid the more subconscious types of prejudice.
He doesn't. Toral never really had any contact with non-Cardassians (except for wars he fought in). His duties keep him deep in Cardassian territory where only Cardassians live. He's got no experience in dealing with aliens.

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
BTW...why hasn't Aladar gotten a promotion? It sounds like his responsibilities have really increased...
Aladar is a garesh, grade four. Dalar is grade five (the highest and as the commander of all non-cons he can be the only one with that rank on the station). So no worries, his skills are appreciated and were rewarded accordingly
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Old January 23 2011, 02:29 AM   #36
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

That's good. Ever since he helped Kapoor with her Cardassian, and then helped save AU Dukat's life, I thought Aladar was the kind of person who should be able to really go places.
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Old January 23 2011, 02:44 AM   #37
Gul Re'jal
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

Aladar is too nice to forget about it and abandon him
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Old January 24 2011, 01:19 AM   #38
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

Gul Re'jal wrote: View Post
Aladar is too nice to forget about it and abandon him
Indeed he is.



And just because that "purr" you described was such a cute little detail, I HAVE to ask...with Koral, I'm kind of hearing a little "Mrrrrrr..." sound when he acknowledges certain orders. (How much he rolls the "r" I'm not sure! ) Does that sound about right?
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Old January 24 2011, 02:10 AM   #39
Gul Re'jal
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

He doesn't open his mouth and the "rrrrrr" sound would be deep in his throat so not really rolling or vibrating. It's rather mmmmrrrrrr deep in this throat and not reaching his mouth to come out. I don't know how to describe it better.
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Old January 24 2011, 02:17 AM   #40
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

I think I get it now.

My Cardassians do roll their r's to varying degrees depending on regional accent, so I guess I tend to imagine them all doing that. The "rh" is always trilled quite strongly (though that's a simultaneous trill/hiss). The "r" is always at least a "tap" like in Spanish, but in certain accents is rolled more strongly in certain positions. Dukat's accent is one that does so quite strongly.
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Old January 24 2011, 02:31 AM   #41
Gul Re'jal
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

Some of accents on my Cardassia have very strong, vibrating R. Jarol's native Nokarrrrrrian, for example. I think she doesn't have it when she speaks the Unionese, but all Nokarian dialects have clear R, some stronger, some weaker, but veRy cleaR.

Lakarian accent, for some reason, has almost non-existing R. I wonder why?**



**For those who missed that conversation in the previous story comments: my Lakarians speak like Brits in English.
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Old January 24 2011, 03:17 AM   #42
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

Maybe our Cardassian languages sound the way they do because of what sounds "foreign" to each of our ears. After all, in my case as an English-speakers, the rolled/trilled "r" is one of the biggest obstacles we have to overcome to speak many languages.
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Old January 24 2011, 03:32 AM   #43
Gul Re'jal
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

Possibly. Jarol is close to my heart (and she was the first one from my "regular cast" that I have created), so her native language is closer in the set of sounds to mine, but the official Cardassian language is as foreign to me as to her
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Old January 24 2011, 03:48 AM   #44
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

For me, while my Cardassian is supposed to sound "foreign," knowing Spanish did "predispose" me to use certain sounds that are foreign-but-familiar (with a slightly "serpentine" twist).
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Old January 26 2011, 07:38 PM   #45
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Re: ST: Shaping a Cardassian - "Strength Without Sacrifice is Useless"

Just to go slightly off topic here perhaps, but I've always wanted to find this out...

What does the various English speaking accents sound like to someone for whom it is either a second language or speaks several other languages?

And since I lack any linguistic talent I have no way of gauging the different sounds of the Cardassian accents, except that aside from Larakria of course, most Cardassians sound remarkably like the mid-west USA. ()

Speaking of our noble Lakarians, I noticed recently that in the episode wherein Gul Dukat first meets Odo, the good Gul adopts a very over the top ridiculas(sic) Lakarian accent.

(sorry about the awful spelling there, SpellChecker is not as useful on these occasions as it should be, may the Cold take it!)
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