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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Rough Beasts Of Empire
Outstanding 36 25.35%
Above Average 59 41.55%
Average 25 17.61%
Below Average 13 9.15%
Poor 9 6.34%
Voters: 142. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 6 2011, 09:42 PM   #121
Enterprise1981
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

The Super Brando wrote: View Post

And oh whoa! What the hell ever happened to the Dominion?! They left. . . and then what? Odo? Dominion subjects? Fallout in the Gamma Quadrant of the Dominion War?

And damn dude, what about the Cardassians?
Who knows the future of the Dominion after the Founder mass suicide in "Olympus Descending". At last check, Odo and Laas are what's left of the Founders. And there was certainly major political fallout on Cardassia after the assassination of Alon Ghemor and contributions to the Battle of the Azure Nebula. Not sure whether or not they are one of the expanded Khitomer Accords powers.
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Old January 8 2011, 04:31 AM   #122
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread



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Old January 8 2011, 02:29 PM   #123
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Of the three books so far I must say the this was by far my favorite. While I had to almost force myself to read the others at no time during my reading of RBoE did I feel bored. I actually liked the Sisko plot. I was a little confused with what happened to Vaughn in ZSG and I am glad that was explained although I don't think I am alone when I say that This book should have been first.
I am a little disappointed with these books as a whole. They are missing something and don't seem to flow as well as Destiny. We are seeing parts of the Thypon Pact as individuals and dealing with inside issues and not as one big group. I am hoping that the novels coming out after Paths of Disharmony or maybe that book itself finally shows us what the Typhon Pact is all about.
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Old January 9 2011, 06:23 PM   #124
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

If I may ask:

David, you metioned that Rough Beasts begins, chronologically, before Zero Sum Game.

How far does that go--or do they overlap some way? (If they overlap, how far?)

I apologize, but...it's just that I'm in the works of writing a fanfic which takes place after ZSG, but involves the Romulans, and I don't want to contradict anything....
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Old January 9 2011, 08:16 PM   #125
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

^ Yeah, you're really going to need to read this book, then.
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Old January 9 2011, 09:34 PM   #126
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
I'm in the works of writing a fanfic which takes place after ZSG, but involves the Romulans, and I don't want to contradict anything....
Ooh, I look forward to reading that. I trust it will tie in the Breen keeping some of the secrets of the slipstream drive for themselves with
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Old January 10 2011, 01:27 AM   #127
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
If I may ask:

David, you metioned that Rough Beasts begins, chronologically, before Zero Sum Game.

How far does that go--or do they overlap some way? (If they overlap, how far?)

I apologize, but...it's just that I'm in the works of writing a fanfic which takes place after ZSG, but involves the Romulans, and I don't want to contradict anything....


Also, you could read the book.
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Old January 10 2011, 01:39 AM   #128
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rough Beasts of Empire actually takes places over the course of precisely one Terran year. It begins in late February 2381, during the final Borg invasion described in David Mack's brilliant Destiny trilogy, and it ends 365 days later, in late February 2382.
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Old January 10 2011, 01:59 AM   #129
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Man, my reviews have been longwinded lately. Here's another one: I had two simultaneous, totally separate reactions to this book, and I'm still working on reconciling them.

It basically went like this - on the one hand: HELL YES. ONLY REALLY GREAT TREK BOOK IN ALL OF 2010. On the other hand: Star Trek has a really annoying problem right now.

****SPOILERS AHEAD****

Let’s start with the bad news first – holy crap does the Star Trek universe have no idea where it’s going. It’s strangely almost palpable, what’s happened since Marco left the line. He juggled Vanguard, Titan, DS9, Mirror Universe, Lost Era, Voyager, and various other linked things, all in different time frames no less, and STILL made them feel like part of an evolving and unified narrative going interesting places. Then, he leaves, Margaret Clark decides to bring all the series up to the same time frame – something that you’d think would help coordination – and now all of a sudden it feels like authors are just grabbing whatever plot threads they feel like grabbing and making a giant clusterfuck out of the entire enterprise.

Like, the Typhon Pact's purpose was to examine these alien societies, and that's been going pretty well. The problem is that totally random character threads have been used around them. Tuvok is now the repository of all terraforming knowledge, which works with his time on the Excelsior in some way… Bashir is joining Section 31, somehow… and now we have Sisko, leaving his wife and rejoining Starfleet, in a plotline that tangentially and awkwardly touches the overarching narrative twice (remembering Tzenkethi, speaking with Donatra) but has no comfortable place in this novel.

And look at what's happened to DS9! Now we have Bashir on a random irritating cliffhanger from a book that had nothing else to do with DS9, a major conflict behind us with no real hint at its impact (Ascendents), several stories totally hanging from several years prior (Taran'atar, Dominion), and now Sisko leaving his wife... It’s just a mess, quite honestly; a complete mess. It’s just destroyed the through-lines of the DS9 stories almost completely, and I have no idea how we’ll be picking up the pieces after this. Sisko's story is so completely connected to the DS9 mythology that it needed to happen in a DS9 novel, with the other characters reacting and being a part of it. Right now, it feels like it's going nowhere. Is this setup for Sisko to be an adversary to the Tzenkethi later, outside the DS9 stories? For his wife to get him back, in a story about the Bajoran religion? No idea.

Come to think of it, that might actually be the reason all this plot intertwining is bothering me; it’s completely unclear where they’re trying to go. Sisko is being set up for something here, but what? Bashir…? Tuvok…? Where is all this headed? When Marco did this shit, I felt like he had a plan. Right now, it's just scattershot and confusing, including yet another DS9 plot being grabbed in a TNG story in Paths Of Disharmony. AND we know NONE of this is being followed up on until 2012 at the earliest. At this point, it feels like we need like a 10 book miniseries involving everyone in the whole 24th century crossing over with everyone else just to get the plotlines untangled and sorted back out into individual series. It's frustrating as hell, and all this damage has been done in three books!

But on the flipside...

Everything that happens in this book – disconnected and divorced from context though it is – is AWESOME.

1) The Tzenkethi are freaking brilliant and incredibly intimidating and cold and awesome and I love them. Having one - ONE - genetically predetermined problem solver just totally fix the entire Romulan problem? THAT is how you introduce a bad guy. These are some serious ceiling-walking badass motherfuckers, and I can't wait to see them again.

2) The turns of the Romulan Empire are fabulous (and completely surprising to me). Putting the Romulan Empire in the hands of a new and totally sane Praetor is exactly what should be happening right now.

3) Spock is characterized better than I’ve ever seen him and is starting nicely to move towards canon’s placement for him from JJTrek. I really could practically hear Nimoy delivering the lines; flawless.

4) Finally, in my opinion, Sisko’s story couldn't be more perfect. It’s exactly right in that painful, Joss Whedon way where it’s so totally sad and wrong and upsetting and unhappy for everyone involved, but it’s exactly where Sisko needs to go next. Yes, I understand the awkwardness inherent in turning a black man into a deadbeat dad, but if we could kill off Janeway and still have no problem throwing out the most gender-equal story in Trek history the very next year (Destiny), I think we can get away with this. Because it’s so perfect. I mean, that story really needed to happen in an actual DS9 novel and not here, since leaving out everyone’s reactions is really odd, but as it stands here it still presents a completely reasonable reaction to impossibly bizarre circumstances that took some real guts to pitch and write. I’m impressed.

Honestly: I loved every twist, every turn, and every character. This was written brilliantly.

But: MAN, is it clear what the lack of good editorial leadership is doing. Jesus. This book was great, but this whole miniseries is an absolute disaster, structurally.
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Old January 10 2011, 02:28 AM   #130
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Agree completly about the trainwreck ths DS9 has become. I was really looking forward to the DS9-R-R (reboot, reboot) but will be passing on it now. I have zero interest in how it;s being laid out.
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Old January 10 2011, 02:34 AM   #131
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Thrawn wrote: View Post

Man, my reviews have been longwinded lately. Here's another one: I had two simultaneous, totally separate reactions to this book, and I'm still working on reconciling them.

It basically went like this - on the one hand: HELL YES. ONLY REALLY GREAT TREK BOOK IN ALL OF 2010. On the other hand: Star Trek has a really annoying problem right now.
Well...uh...thanks?

Seriously, interesting comments all around. I am particularly gratified to hear that you liked the Tzenkethi, the machinations of the Romulans, Spock's characterization, and in particular, Sisko's arc. I do understand your desire to have had Sisko's tale told in a novel set singularly within the Deep Space Nine milieu. For various reasons, I did not have that option. I also gather just why you think that the Star Trek literary universe has "no idea where it’s going." All I can tell you is this: that's not true.
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Old January 10 2011, 02:44 AM   #132
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I haven't actually read RBoE yet, but I haven been pretty shocked by everything I've read about it, and what I've read in ZSG.
Don't get me wrong, I've been enjoying ZSG, and what I've read about RBoE sounds good, I just would have rather seen things go in a different direction.
I keep wanting to defend the books that have been released so far this year, but then I realized that I've skipped most of them because they have been getting such bad reviews. I rushed out the buy Inception, but I'm honestly not sure when I'm gonna get around to buying it, and I didn't even bother with Unspoken Truth for the same reason.
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Old January 10 2011, 03:12 AM   #133
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

kkozoriz1 wrote: View Post
Agree completly about the trainwreck ths DS9 has become. I was really looking forward to the DS9-R-R (reboot, reboot) but will be passing on it now. I have zero interest in how it;s being laid out.
Oh don't get me wrong; I'm interested in how it's being laid out. It just seems really disorganized and random. I think lots of good stories *could* come out of this, I just don't really see any particular indication that they're on the way.

David R. George III wrote: View Post
Seriously, interesting comments all around. I am particularly gratified to hear that you liked the Tzenkethi, the machinations of the Romulans, Spock's characterization, and in particular, Sisko's arc. I do understand your desire to have had Sisko's tale told in a novel set singularly within the Deep Space Nine milieu. For various reasons, I did not have that option. I also gather just why you think that the Star Trek literary universe has "no idea where it’s going." All I can tell you is this: that's not true.
...except for that post, and the others like it you've posted lately. I mean, I really want to believe you, and it's always worked out before. I'm just frustrated that, even if this IS all going somewhere great, we won't even be able to find out for a really long time.

But genuinely: I did a lot of complaining in that review, but as a standalone novel, best Trek novel in a year easily. Easily. Sorrows Of Empire was the last Trek book I enjoyed this much.
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Old January 10 2011, 03:20 AM   #134
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

JD wrote: View Post

At this point I'm hoping that maybe they're going to do a big miniseries or arc that brings everybody back together.
Here's the thing (and I mentioned this earlier in the thread). At the conclusion of the Deep Space Nine television series, the characters were scattered all over the galaxy. Sisko ascended to the Celestial Temple. O'Brien and his family left DS9 and returned to Earth. Worf accepted a position as Federation ambassador to the Klingon Empire. Garak remained on Cardassia. Odo went back to the Great Link. Dukat, Winn, Damar, and the (allegedly) last Weyoun clone all perished. Of the main characters, only Kira, Bashir, Ezri, Jake, and Quark were still on the station. Really, this kept with the overall feel of DSN, at least for me. The real hallmark of the show was change, and the final episode continued in that vein.

In relaunching Deep Space Nine as a continuing literary endeavor, it became necessary to introduce new characters, and to follow familiar characters in new settings. Now, could the remaining original cast members be brought back together on the station? Yeah, maybe. Could it be done believably and well? I'm not so sure. In my estimation, though--and I mean this not as a writer, but as a reader--resetting the characters and situations to where they began would not be particularly fulfilling. Of course, that's just my take.
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Old January 10 2011, 03:21 AM   #135
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Thrawn wrote: View Post
It basically went like this - on the one hand: HELL YES. ONLY REALLY GREAT TREK BOOK IN ALL OF 2010.
Actually, it's the January 2011 book.
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