TP: Rough Beasts of Empire by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[KingstonTrekker]

Thanks David --- and for the record, I do have a high regard for your work

My one major constructive (I hope) criticism of RBOE pertains to my perspective that the Sisko arc never really came together. I think that this might very well have been rectified if you could have expanded the novel's elements about his experiences during the Federation-Tzenkethi War. This would have more directly linked his past experiences with the Tzenkethi to the current political context and his adventures as captain of the Robinson.

Also for the record...I loved DS9 but have not been a fan of the past few books in the Relaunch. Although I was hoping for more from your Sisko story, I felt it was the best DS9-R tale in a very, very, long time. It was great to see him commanding not one but two Federation starships --- and to see him finally starting to settle in as captain of the Robinson at the end of the book. In fact, I hope that you are the author who gets to continue Sisko's tale in future books.

[TerraUnam]

David:



I'm happy to see that you think the same way I do. I just think that there has to be something said for two centuries spent on weaving ties of politics, culture and even family within the Federation.

Sure Romulans are genetic relations but it's the Humans who live next door and then there's that Betazoid daughter-in-law....

It just seems there's so much to be said there. So if you as a writer find it interesting, please run with it. Look at Tuvok's family. You're not asking the Lit universe to do something that's not already there to be shaped.

Second, on the Cardassians, when I said all eyes are on them now and you said I might be surprised; please surprise me.

[KingstonTrekker]

TerraUnam wrote:

---

I'm happy to see that you think the same way I do. I just think that there has to be something said for two centuries spent on weaving ties of politics, culture and even family within the Federation.

Sure Romulans are genetic relations but it's the Humans who live next door

I agree 100%. I have always found Spock's tireless efforts toward Reunification to be strange. I remember thinking this when I watched Unification when it first aired.

[TerraUnam]

Plus there is the cumulative impact of Human/Vulcan interaction. It was the Vulcans who were the other party in Earth's First Contact and they played a leading role in the 98-year period from 2063 to 2161 when Earth, with Vulcan's help:

• picked up the ashes after WWIII
• achieved global unity,
• became a spacefaring species
• launched extra-solar colonies
• fought humanity's first interstellar war, and
• gave up a good deal of sovereignty to embrace collective interstellar and inter-species unity by forming the Federation.

And then there were all the things the Federation went through together. All in the past 300 years.

This against a millenia-old genetic tie and interstellar migration that passed into faint memory and near-legend by the 2100's (Earth calendar) plus the fact that Spock sees Romulans as "Fallen Vulcans" who need to be brought to Surak.

Sometimes I think it's Spock who needs the attitude adjustment, not the Romulans.

[David R. George III]

KingstonTrekker wrote:

---

I have always found Spock's tireless efforts toward Reunification to be strange.

As I read this statement, I thought you were going to say that you always found Spock's tireless efforts toward reunification to be tiresome. Would have been a good line.

[Ronald Held]

So far, this seems like two books that really are not that strongly coupled together. Couldit have been written as two stories in a book?

[starri]

I really hate to be negative about the books, because I know all of the authors work really hard on them, and don't really deserve to be heckled on a website.

That said...

The resolution of the Sisko subplot actually made me angry.

One of DS9's recurring themes was about Sisko's reluctance to embrace his being the Emissary, but that he eventually did accept it, and by the end of the series seemed to see himself as Emissary first, everything else second. To have him just decide "Oh well, guess I'm not the Emissary anymore, guess I'll just dump my wife and kid on Bajor and get on living my life" seemed to fly in the face of all of that.

I don't want to go all Comic Book Guy here, but it really seemed like an utter betrayal of the character.

I guess I might just be overreacting to a plot development that I didn't like, but at the same, I wasn't exactly crazy about what's become of Kira, but I can at least see that being a fairly logical progression for her.

[David R. George III]

starri wrote:

---

The resolution of the Sisko subplot actually made me angry.

Well, I'm certainly sorry to hear that. The thing is, I truly feel that the way you characterized the story was not really accurate.

starri wrote:

---

One of DS9's recurring themes was about Sisko's reluctance to embrace his being the Emissary, but that he eventually did accept it, and by the end of the series seemed to see himself as Emissary first, everything else second.

I completely agree.

starri wrote:

---

To have him just decide "Oh well, guess I'm not the Emissary anymore, guess I'll just dump my wife and kid on Bajor and get on living my life" seemed to fly in the face of all of that.

Wildly disagree. First of all, Sisko did not "just" decide anything. He lived through and weighed events over the course of many months, even years, until he reached an extremely painful resolution to a difficult set of circumstances--a resolution designed to safeguard his family. At no time did he consider the course of action he took as a means to "get on living my life."

Further, Sisko did not choose to give up being the Emissary; the Prophets apparently completed employing him for their aims, to the point of no longer even being a part of his life.

starri wrote:

---

I don't want to go all Comic Book Guy here, but it really seemed like an utter betrayal of the character.

Your description of what happened in the story might rightly be considered a betrayal of the character, but again, that's not really what took place.

starri wrote:

---

I guess I might just be overreacting to a plot development that I didn't like, but at the same, I wasn't exactly crazy about what's become of Kira, but I can at least see that being a fairly logical progression for her.

I wouldn't suggest that you are overreacting; whether or not you like a story is a subjective matter, and there's nothing wrong with you not liking--or even hating--my novel. At the same time, I really feel that your impressions of the events in the story are not entirely accurate.

I will also say this. On the whole, I love the Deep Space Nine characters, Sisko among them. I would never want to write anything that undermined the essence of any of those characters, and certainly not Ben. At the same time, I do understand that the direction in which I took Sisko's tale might challenge some readers. I'm good with that; I like to challenge myself, and to bring the unexpected to my work. It's my job to sell that to the readers, and I'm sorry I didn't manage to do that with you. I'm hopeful that I will have better fortunes with others.

[JD]

Hmm, everything I read there has really piqued my interest in this book.

[rfmcdpei]

TerraUnam wrote:

---

This against a millenia-old genetic tie and interstellar migration that passed into faint memory and near-legend by the 2100's (Earth calendar) plus the fact that Spock sees Romulans as "Fallen Vulcans" who need to be brought to Surak.

Sometimes I think it's Spock who needs the attitude adjustment, not the Romulans.

If we're going by numbers, it's the Romulans who probably represent the dominant cultural trend in the Vulcan species. While Vulcan recovered from its near-terminal wars and fortified itself in its small corner of space against neighbours like the Andorians, Vulcan's offshoot colony on Romulus spent its two thousand years of independence creating a vast interstellar community. If said it elsewhere, but even leaving aside possible offshoots like the Rigellians aside, Surak's ethics are still big only among a minority of Vulcans. Trying to make converts to Surak's philosophy among Romulans who are culturally predisposed to a certain xenophobia and skepticism among Vulcann isn't a bad idea, but trying to make Romulans buy into the very historically contingent experiences of their planet-bound kin ... ?

Kamenor might be more right in saying that a certain amount of cross-pollination is all that can be hoped for, although I think you still need a movement for that kind of cultural embassage.

Why is Spock so big into the idea of Romulan-Vulcan unification? There are suggestions, from Taking Wing, that the idea is fairly popular on Vulcan if not among the Romulans. Maybe Vulcans see it as their way of completing their civilization's recovery, of tidying things up.

[rfmcdpei]

David R. George III wrote:

---

I will also say this. On the whole, I love the Deep Space Nine characters, Sisko among them. I would never want to write anything that undermined the essence of any of those characters, and certainly not Ben. At the same time, I do understand that the direction in which I took Sisko's tale might challenge some readers. I'm good with that; I like to challenge myself, and to bring the unexpected to my work. It's my job to sell that to the readers, and I'm sorry I didn't manage to do that with you. I'm hopeful that I will have better fortunes with others.

The Sisko segment reminded me of Season 6 Buffy, actually.

It hurt to see Sisko and his--characters I care about--be so horribly depressed and self-destructive, but it made sense that they could and would do that, and the story of how this could happen was compelling.

[TerraUnam]

Articles of the Federation had it down to his failures in the Khitomer Conference and the death of Chancellor Gorkon.

Other than that it's never been really explained other than in "Unification" as his bit to bring more Vulcans/Romulans to Surak.

[kaysea]

I just finished reading it and I give it a 4.5/5. It was a good fucking read. It was nicely paced, entertaining and I kept on wanting to read more. I even had some HOLY SHIT! just like that huh? moments ... with the deaths and all,which is a good thing.

The only problem I had with it was the whole Sisko thing. I never read anything post DS9 series specifically regarding him until now and I must say I'm not entirely digging the whole sullen moping thing he has been portraying throughout the novel. It just seems so unlike Captain Sisko. Anyways keep up the good work David R George III I will read more of your books.

To the guy wanting to know what the Tzenethi are here's an excerpt;

Excerpt deleted

Oh and the Tzenkethi have unrestricted "castes" for their peoples which is determined by genetics ... and they fly around in tear droped ships

[Rosalind]

^ Sorry kaysea, I know you're trying to do a nice thing for your fellow posters, but David has requested that the passage be deleted (considering the book only just start to appear in the shops).

[Clem1029]

I finished the book yesterday, and I've been stewing on my reaction since then. In a vacuum, it's definitely a good read, but it comes off as a bit...frustrating with some of it's contributions to many ongoing narratives.

The look into Spock's ongoing unification movement provided a nice framing for everything going on in the Empire right at this point. It was definitely interesting to see Spock and his movement get played as part of Tal'Aura's plan to bring down Donatra. Also, as positioning, bringing the Movement out of the shadows and underground into the "mainstream" (for lack of a better word) works pretty well - if nothing else, it at least sets up the foundation for why, say, the Romulan government would listing to Spock when the ST09 supernova comes.

All that said...isn't the Romulan storyline just a Nemesis reset? Don't get me wrong, the machinations that go into it are interesting to read, but the end game is what? Reconstituted Senate with all the political structure introduced in Trek Lore, reintegration of the empire (getting rid of the IRS so quickly was one of the bigger surprises in this book), anyone associated with Shinzon and events immediately following are gone...the Empire itself is right back to where it was before Shinzon. OK, sure, as part of the TP it's by definition different, but after all the time spent setting up the post-Nemesis empire(s), it just seems to wipe the slate clean and make the future narratives strictly Typhon Pact related. Not that it's a bad thing, but the payoff isn't here in this book - it's going to come whenever we revisit Romulus next.

The Tzenkethi parts were well developed without dominating the rest of the storyline. I loved the idea that there's going to be some internal manipulation by Typhon Pact members, and as muchas the Romulans might like to think they're the power brokers, setting the Tzenkethi up as pulling the strings in the background is a fun move with much future potential.

Argh. Sigh. Ugh.

Before I get going here, I should point out my own biases - I've been excited about the Typhon Pact books for 2 reasons - 1) the concept and post-Destiny cleanup seemed awesome and 2) we finally get some more DS9-related goodness (or what I hoped to be goodness). I'm a total unapologetic DS9R cheerleader.

The Sisko stuff is hugely frustrating. I can sort of see the argument that all this crap hitting the fan can destroy a man's soul causing him to take drastic actions. Unfortunately, we don't get to SEE the crap hit the fan over the previous 5 years. We don't get to see the tension with Kasidy develop organically. Instead, we're forced into a situation where probably the consummate family man in Trek history (with O'Brien being in that discussion as well) abandons his family because of...what? I can't see how a man who had all sorts of crap thrown at him in his lifetime suddenly doesn't realize that sometimes bad things happen, everyone dies eventually, and that it's all completely beyond his control. It's like he came down with a massive "the universe revolves around me" complex - our friends on Bajor died? It's because I married Kassidy. The Borg invaded? Because I married Kassidy. Vaughn is brain dead? Kassidy again. My dad died? Yep, you guessed it, because I made the decision to love and commit my life to Kassidy and start a family. What sort of God-complex did he come down with during his time with the Prophets? Plus, with the line of "the Prophets have left him after his use was up," he comes off as nothing more than an addict - trying to get that next hit, wondering where the high is and why it isn't as high, and despondent with the withdrawal.

The flip side to this is that it's possible to see someone hitting this rock bottom and making drastic decisions based on any rationalization he can come up with. But we don't get to see that - we're treated to what looks like a complete character break rather than normal character development. To be fair, this isn't the fault of the book or of the author - it's the result of the DS9 Great Leap forward. There's no context to his actions - it's just a jarring jump.

• It was nice to see what happened to Vaughn from what we saw in ZSG. He's not dead, and they're not pulling the plug, so I'm guessing there's something for this storyline down the way. If I were a betting man, I'd suggest there's going to be something Prophet-related going on with him at the end of the day.
• Vedek Kira - from Attained to Vedek in 5 years? Not too shabby. Again, this is something that I could buy into, but it happens with little-to-no context.
• The Ascendants - apparently that was a thing that happened.

I hate to say it (because it would serious bum me out if it were true), the DS9R threads in the Typhon Pact books almost seem to be the epilogue to the DS9 story. It just comes off as cleaning up/cutting various hanging threads, reposition all the characters to different points in their lives, completely remove/separate everyone, and end the ongoing stories. 2 starships with new crews, practically a 3rd new crew on the station, plus all the Bajoran religious/political happenings (along with whatever ends up going on with Shar in Paths of Disharmony)...it just seems too much for a DS9 branded series to keep up with and do justice to. Instead, spread everyone out, look in on them/have them show up randomly from time to time in other novels, but the "Season 8" style of the relaunch (Avatar through Unity) seems to be a thing of the past. From a publication/editorial perspective this makes some level of sense - remove one ongoing series from the rotation, instead work it into the main narrative and just rebrand everything under the "Star Trek" moniker.

I really hope I'm wrong about this, but after ZSG and RBoE, I can't shake the feeling that the DS9 relaunch (such that it was) is over.

Anywho, enough of my rambling - RBoE is a good read in a vacuum, a frustrating read for the ongoing story threads, but mostly comes off as repositioning and setup for whatever comes "next."