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Old December 13 2010, 07:56 PM   #121
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

Saul wrote: View Post
It worked for Begins because that was two different characters. But here it's just one character who turns out to be Brainiac. For people who don't know Brainiac such a reveal is meaningless.
Keep in mind that the vast majority of the audience for a superhero film will consist of people who don't read the comics or watch the cartoons. Plenty of people who saw Batman Begins had never heard of Ra's al Ghul before, but the reveal still worked for them, because Ra's was established and defined as a character early in the film. The key would simply be to make the reveal effective in a way that didn't depend on name recognition. They could've handled Brainiac the same way Nolan handled Ra's, by having a scene early in the film where Superman learned of a dangerous Kryptonian AI named Brainiac (perhaps while browsing the Fortress's database, similarly to how he learned of the Phantom Zone villains in Superman II). Or they could've had the surprise of the revelation depend, not on who Brainiac was, but on what he was -- the fact that this supposedly heroic Kryptonian was actually a murderous AI would be perfectly effective as a surprise revelation regardless of the AI's name recognition.
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Old December 13 2010, 08:02 PM   #122
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

As someone who was never into comics, I honestly don't care who the villains are, so long as they work effectively in the context of the film. Beyond Luthor and Zod (and only from the Donner films, at that), I really have very little knowledge of Superman's rogue's gallery -- so for me, the reveal would depend entirely on how it was executed in the film.
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Old December 13 2010, 08:04 PM   #123
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

They could homage the robotic "Terminator" Brainiac and build up the mystery by having the robot skull version attack Earth, until the new Kryptonian Guy saves him. This instantly earns him brownie points and is his example for why Earth should be saved by him: to make sure they're prepared for the next hostile alien attack.

This makes the revelation that he IS Brainiac and the prior one was just his pawn/creation more effective.
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Old December 13 2010, 08:31 PM   #124
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

Servo wrote: View Post
Also, SR loses points automatically for its portrayal of Lex.
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Old December 13 2010, 09:29 PM   #125
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

I see several problems. Granted it's not even a full treatment but...


Superman: The Man of Steel

TMS started just a few years after the incidents that we saw in Superman Returns. Kal-El is doing what Superman does best, Lois Lane is raising her kid Jason, who of course is Superman's child and the world is getting use to having Superman back.

Now there are storyline threads that go back to Superman Returns, one is the on going plot of Superman's original reason of going back to Krypton. He has always wondered if he truly is the last Son of Krypton.

Remember new Krypton that Lex created with crystals he stole from the Fortress of Solitude and Kryptonite that Supes launched into to space that nearly killed him?

So new Krypton continues to grow in space and has become an almost perfect sphere. It is now the size of a small moon.

Besides giving Humans something to admire at night, Earth new satellite has also brought some unexpected attention from a galaxy far, far away.

A massive spaceship arrives Earth's orbit, Superman flys up to meet the spacecraft and we are introduced to our out of this world visitor.
I assume this is all in the first 10-15 minutes of the film. Fair enough.

Superman quickly finds out that our visitor is also a Kryptonian survivor who has been traveling the known galaxies and was able to detect Kryptonian technology thanks to our new green/black satellite that has started to orbit the Earth.

Superman finally has found a Kryptonian buddy and starts showing him around the planet, a planet full of problems, disease, famine, crime and nations at war with each other.

Our new Kryptonian friend asks Superman why, with all his power, is he not changing the world for the better. Why is he not getting rid of famine, disease and war? Of course fans know that Superman has always been told, or better said instructed, not to interfere with Earth's development.


Superman explains that he is not allowed to interfere but his Krypto buddy tells him that with their powers they are required to "interfere," Superman disagrees.

Krypto buddy decides to take charge and starts "interfering" from day one. One of the first things that he does is get involved in a political mess that is heating up between two third world nations.

War breaks out between these two nations but before any real battle breaks our Krypto buddy interferes and lays waste to these two Armies.
Early big action sequence - in which Supes does what? Stands by and watches? "Krypto buddy lays waste to two armies" - that's a lot of people dead.

He declares to the world that he will not allow anymore wars and/or the destruction of our planet. He is declaring a "War Free" planet and for those who disagree he will have to deal with them.

The major nations of the planet applaud his actions and all agree to an immediate worldwide peace. In return he promises to share technology, fight hunger, famine and disease.

The population of the world rejoices and any small pockets of resistance is quickly squashed by Krypto buddy or even the world governments.
The world rejoices at an all-powerful dictator enforcing peace at the end of his heat vision? WTF?

Superman has now become a pariah, the way the world sees it, he has been here for years and had kept technology that could have saved many of the worlds problems.

Superman starts getting a bit suspicious of Krypto buddy and decides to go talk to him.
TALK to him? He's just murdered numerous soldiers, declared himself dictator of earth and promised to end hunger, famine and disease, um, how exactly? Is he going to become a farmer and a doctor? These aren't exactly problems to be fixed by being able to lift heavy objects. Okay, share technology... nifty Kryptonian technology which apparently has the amazing ability to - grow big crystals when added to water? Fabulous!

I know comic book movies can gloss over logic, but, seriously - how is the movie going to show him spreading the knowledge to build the technology to solve problems like famine and disease? Will it stop for 10 minutes in the middle to show Barniac's "Solve all the World's Problems University" being founded?

He goes to his spaceship and has a revelation. This massive ship is full of hundreds if not thousands of identical bodies aboard, yep, clones of Krypto buddy, in stasis.

So Superman digs a bit more inside the "computer" system, which is familiar to him since it's Kryptonian technology just like the Fortress of Solitude.

Superman finds out that Krypto buddy is actually an artificial intelligence from Krypton that has evolved since the destruction of their world.

He escaped Krypton just like Kal-El did and his real name is Brainiac. He has been going from planet to planet, taking their technology, helping these worlds reach a relative perfection and then he destroys them and moves on.
Here's my biggest problem. Braniac perfects worlds - and then destroys them. And why does he destroy them? Because that's what eeevvvvilllll villains do?

Superman also finds out that he was actually responsible for the destruction of Krypton and tries to warn the leaders of the world but is confronted by Braniac. A massive battle ensues and Superman is about to defeat his foe but right just before Brainiac downloads his conscience into one oh his other clones.

Superman realizes that he must destroy this massive ship along with all the clones aboard. After another massive battle he is able to disable the ship, destroy the clones and the new Braniac but right before the ship is destroyed the Braniac main frame does a local search for another body that he could download in to, it has to be Kryptonian, and he finds another one on Earth, Superman's kid
Jason White.

So Brainiac uses Kryptonian technology and beams/download itself into Jason's body and this causes causes him to age and grow into a full adult but with Brainiac in complete control.

Superman realizes what just happened and rushes to confront his very own son who is now possessed by Brainiac.

Is Jason still there or is it all Brainiac? It's all Braniac and Superman knows what he has to do, he must defeat Brainiac at all costs or the planet and it's inhabitants will be doomed.

It's a battle between two gods but Superman has already been run ragged and beat down pretty bad in his previous battles of the day. Brainiac has the upper hand and Superman is trying to not to do any permanent damage to Jason's body.

Every time Brainiac is defeated in the past he simply tries to download to another clone and leaves that body completely brain dead but with no other bodies left, will Jason survive? The answer in no.

There is a Christ like metaphor here. Superman has to sacrifice his own son to save humanity.

There are still plenty of holes left in this story, we were not privy to all the details but this is the bulk of the info we received.
I can't even get into the whole Superman sacrifices his son (who has gone the way of so very many heroic offspring - directly into plot device territory) because the first half of the plot doesn't make much sense.
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Old December 13 2010, 09:57 PM   #126
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

In the Timm animated series, Brainiac would go around collecting all possible information on alien cultures he'd encounter and then destroy the planet. His reasoning being that "The fewer beings that have the knowledge, the more precious it becomes.", which is why he let Krypton be destroyed and prevented any evacuations from happening.
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Old December 13 2010, 10:06 PM   #127
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

I used to be confused as to why WB didn't let Singer have another go. SR did not less than decent box-office, and many superhero sequels improve on the first movie's take anyway, so why not?

Now I know.
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Old December 13 2010, 10:08 PM   #128
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
Early big action sequence - in which Supes does what? Stands by and watches?
Does the hero have to be in every scene? A lot of stuff happened in The Dark Knight without Batman being involved.

"Krypto buddy lays waste to two armies" - that's a lot of people dead.
Unless he does it superhero-style and just "lays waste" to their weapons, tanks, missiles, etc. without harming the people.


TALK to him? He's just murdered numerous soldiers, declared himself dictator of earth and promised to end hunger, famine and disease, um, how exactly? Is he going to become a farmer and a doctor? These aren't exactly problems to be fixed by being able to lift heavy objects.
In the Silver Age comics, Superman wasn't just superstrong but superintelligent as well. I recall an imaginary story where Superman was dying and dedicated his last days to devising solutions to the world's major problems (most likely this was an inspiration for All-Star Superman).

A lot of the famine and disease in the world are the result of warlords and dictators preventing food and medical supplies from reaching populations they don't like, or the result of wars destroying infrastructure and depleting national treasuries. If war and oppression were ended, then a reduction in famine and disease would be a logical consequence.

As for finding cures for incurable diseases, well, this is Brainiac whether he admits it or not, so it stands to reason that he would have the intelligence to achieve that and would be able to demonstrate as much to the world.


I know comic book movies can gloss over logic, but, seriously - how is the movie going to show him spreading the knowledge to build the technology to solve problems like famine and disease? Will it stop for 10 minutes in the middle to show Barniac's "Solve all the World's Problems University" being founded?
Hmm... a lot of the characters in this movie work for a newspaper... you don't suppose there's any way a movie could use the reporting of the news as a means of providing exposition, do you?


Here's my biggest problem. Braniac perfects worlds - and then destroys them. And why does he destroy them? Because that's what eeevvvvilllll villains do?
I think the key may be the phrase "taking their technology." It sounds to me like the perfection he offers is the bait for the trap -- he lures them in by making it look like he's helping make their lives better, but it's to disguise the fact that he's stealing from them. Kinda like V.


I can't even get into the whole Superman sacrifices his son (who has gone the way of so very many heroic offspring - directly into plot device territory) because the first half of the plot doesn't make much sense.
Well, it's a secondhand account of a rough premise for a story that never got out of the early development phase. Working out the bugs in a story outline is just what the development process is for. I'm sure plenty of the greatest movies had initial proposals that were about as cursory and problem-filled as this. You don't judge an oak by its acorn.
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Old December 13 2010, 10:10 PM   #129
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

^ Is that why actors playing Superman wear a codpiece?
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Old December 13 2010, 11:22 PM   #130
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

Gaith wrote: View Post
I used to be confused as to why WB didn't let Singer have another go. SR did not less than decent box-office, and many superhero sequels improve on the first movie's take anyway, so why not?

Now I know.
I really doubt this was why WB said no to Singer. It looks to me like there would have been PLENTY of room in this story for the kind of action and excitement the studio wanted.

More likely, they just realized that there wasn't enough enthusiasm out there for Singer's version of Superman, and it would be best to just try again later on with a new director.

As much as I loved SR and wanted a sequel... I kind of have to agree with their reasoning.
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Old December 14 2010, 12:21 AM   #131
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

Do we know for sure that Singer was actually told no thanks for a sequel? I know that after "Superman Returns" Bryan had next on the docket his remake of "Logan's Run" which had been written by Chris McQuarrie but there were delays on that which led him to eventually working on "Valkyrie". WB seems to have just let everyone's contract on the sequel to expire. I highly suspect that over the course of pre-production that if this sequel had gone into production that this plot would have been reworked and extensively rewritten which makes me think that this is the initial idea for the sequel.
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Old December 14 2010, 01:25 AM   #132
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

Bryan Singer still has a very strong relationship with Warner Bros., who is distributing his next film Jack the Giant Killer. It was probably more of a case of Warner Bros. deciding to go in a different direction, similarly to how Tim Burton wanted to do another Batman movie after Batman Returns but WB talked him out of it (at least, according to Burton).

The same thing probably happened with Singer- after all, he did talk to some degree about his plans and desire to do a Superman Returns sequel, and obviously based on Michael Dougherty's comments, and based on this story treatment, there was enough development work on this to confirm that at some point or another Singer thought he was going to make another Superman movie.
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Old December 14 2010, 01:33 AM   #133
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

Christopher wrote: View Post
Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
Early big action sequence - in which Supes does what? Stands by and watches?
Does the hero have to be in every scene? A lot of stuff happened in The Dark Knight without Batman being involved.
That's not what I meant. Is Superman seriously not going to intervene as this guy interferes in a war? That seems remarkably uncharacteristic.

"Krypto buddy lays waste to two armies" - that's a lot of people dead.
Unless he does it superhero-style and just "lays waste" to their weapons, tanks, missiles, etc. without harming the people.
I suppose that's possible - but the treatment says "lays waste to the armies", not "lays waste to the armies' equipment."


In the Silver Age comics, Superman wasn't just superstrong but superintelligent as well. I recall an imaginary story where Superman was dying and dedicated his last days to devising solutions to the world's major problems (most likely this was an inspiration for All-Star Superman).
I wasn't criticizing the idea of talking out a problem - I was expressing incredulity that after what Braniac has done, anyone would consider just a stern talking to an appropriate response.

A lot of the famine and disease in the world are the result of warlords and dictators preventing food and medical supplies from reaching populations they don't like, or the result of wars destroying infrastructure and depleting national treasuries. If war and oppression were ended, then a reduction in famine and disease would be a logical consequence.
War and oppression are not ended by someone stronger coming along and killing governmental leaders - or did you miss the war in Iraq that we've been fighting the last 9 years? War and oppression are not ended until a functional government is in place with an infrastructure that can see to the distribution of food and medical supplies. As I said, I know a comic book story often glosses such finer points - but I would have a problem with any movie that suggested war, oppression, hunger and disease were ended in a short period of time by a single powerful person imposing their will on the world. That is beyond my suspension of disbelief.

As for finding cures for incurable diseases, well, this is Brainiac whether he admits it or not, so it stands to reason that he would have the intelligence to achieve that and would be able to demonstrate as much to the world.

Hmm... a lot of the characters in this movie work for a newspaper... you don't suppose there's any way a movie could use the reporting of the news as a means of providing exposition, do you?
See my last point. I was asking how was the movie going to explain the more complicated aspects of fixing the world's problems in a short amount of time? Is he going to personally manufacture enough AIDs medicine to take care of everyone in Africa? Is he going to personally change the behavior of all the people who don't use condoms for cultural reasons to prevent further spread of the infection? How exactly would he do that?

My issue is, the story appears to be hinging on the highly unrealistic idea that all the world needs is brute force and a big computer to solve everything. That's patently ridiculous and a poor premise for a story - even something as fantastical as a Superman story.

Here's my biggest problem. Braniac perfects worlds - and then destroys them. And why does he destroy them? Because that's what eeevvvvilllll villains do?
I think the key may be the phrase "taking their technology." It sounds to me like the perfection he offers is the bait for the trap -- he lures them in by making it look like he's helping make their lives better, but it's to disguise the fact that he's stealing from them. Kinda like V.
And I think that is very kindly speculation on your part. This treatment has a barely even cursory explanation for the villain's motives.

Well, it's a secondhand account of a rough premise for a story that never got out of the early development phase. Working out the bugs in a story outline is just what the development process is for. I'm sure plenty of the greatest movies had initial proposals that were about as cursory and problem-filled as this. You don't judge an oak by its acorn.
You do when it's placed on an internet bulletin board. Isn't giving our opinion of the treatment the point of the thread?
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Old December 14 2010, 01:57 AM   #134
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
That's not what I meant. Is Superman seriously not going to intervene as this guy interferes in a war? That seems remarkably uncharacteristic.
Depends on the nature of the intervention. If he's stopping the fighting without killing anyone, I don't see why Superman would object. Remember, in the Donnerverse (or Donneresque Singerverse), Superman was bound by Jor-El's "Prime Directive" not to interfere in human destiny. So he might be reluctant to interfere in anything that isn't endangering lives, especially if it's actually preventing death.


I suppose that's possible - but the treatment says "lays waste to the armies", not "lays waste to the armies' equipment."
No, the treatment doesn't say that, because this isn't the treatment. What you've been quoting is an IESB article summarizing the treatment. You can't assume that the IESB reporters' word choices accurately represent what was in the actual treatment they're describing.

And even it were the verbatim text of the treatment, it's still just a treatment, a rough proposal in which nothing is carved in stone. It should be taken as read that every single word or concept is subject to change. So to dwell on specific word choices in a treatment, let alone a secondhand article describing a treatment, is misguided.



I wasn't criticizing the idea of talking out a problem - I was expressing incredulity that after what Braniac has done, anyone would consider just a stern talking to an appropriate response.
Huh? My comment was in response to your statement that hunger and disease couldn't be solved by lifting heavy objects. I was saying that there's precedent for the Kryptonian power set including hyperintelligence which would enable solving such problems.


War and oppression are not ended by someone stronger coming along and killing governmental leaders - or did you miss the war in Iraq that we've been fighting the last 9 years?
I'm not saying they are. I wasn't making any such generalized point. I was simply responding to the one specific topic under discussion at that point -- namely, the question you posed of how Brainiac proposed to cure famine and disease. I was pointing out that, IF war and oppression were eliminated -- a purely hypothetical premise for the sake of argument -- a reduction in famine and disease would logically follow. Therefore, Brainiac's claim of being able to eliminate famine and disease tends to follow from his claim of being able to eliminate war. I was offering no opinion on whether that claim was valid in practice.



My issue is, the story appears to be hinging on the highly unrealistic idea that all the world needs is brute force and a big computer to solve everything. That's patently ridiculous and a poor premise for a story - even something as fantastical as a Superman story.
No, the story hinged on the idea that Brainiac could convince the world that he was capable of solving all its problems. It only says he promises to end famine and disease; it never says he actually fulfills those promises. If you don't think it's realistic that someone could convince the public to believe in a patently ridiculous premise, then you must have missed the entire Bush administration.


And I think that is very kindly speculation on your part. This treatment has a barely even cursory explanation for the villain's motives.
No, the Internet article summarizing the treatment has a barely cursory explanation. We don't know how detailed the actual treatment was. And it's a given that a treatment lacks detail that is developed in the scriptwriting process.
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Old December 14 2010, 02:02 AM   #135
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Re: Full story for Bryan Singer's planned SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel reve

One would argue that this version of Superman does not possess the hyper intelligence other versions have. There is nothing in the Donner versions or Returns that would suggest this is included as part of Clark's powers.
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