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Old December 9 2010, 08:12 PM   #661
Peter the Younger
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

Reverend wrote: View Post
Also, limb wounds and such might not kill a walker instantly, but they still have blood, they still have internal organs that require certain processes to work. Just because walkers are governed by pure instinct doesn't make their biology any different from ours. They'll bleed out just like any other human.
In the first episode we saw a "walker" that was basically a half eaten torso, complete with a full exposed rib cage and the thing was still going, so I don't think bleeding out is an issue.
Yeah, trying to use real medical and biological rules for zombies quickly becomes a losing proposition. WW-Z tried mitigate this a bit - the black ooze/blood that is toxic to all other life, including other microbes and parasites, and seems to keep them going even in deep ocean pressures - but the more you know, the harder it is to buy a "scientific" explanation.


FluffyUnbound wrote:
The problem with that World War Z excerpt is pretty straightforward:

Slow zombies can't climb. So they have absolutely no way around or over any obstacle the height of a man or taller.

Slow zombies also don't have the brain power to detect traps.

You set up tall barriers, you lure the zombies up against those barriers by waving at them or what have you, and you kill them. All day. Or once they're stacked up against your barrier a kilometer deep, you helicopter out and napalm the site.

An enemy that can't hide, can't retreat, can't stop himself from advancing, and can't overcome simple obstacles isn't really an enemy. He's an annoyance.

Brooks made that battle work by having the military be too dumb to set up a simple stone wall 8 feet high in front of the advancing zombies. Or if there was no time for stone, city busses lined up nose-to-tail.
I think a key point is that they didn't know any of those things at the time; as somebody else said, it was early in the war, and Brooks devotes a lot of time to all the bad information floating around. Ironically, the same thing that makes zombies biologically implausible is what makes disastrous counter-strategies more likely; the authorities simply can't/won't accept that these things are reanimated corpses that can only be stopped in a very specific way. It's just "African Rabies", or whatever.

Having said that, I do agree that really, you would need mass infection throughout the population, then the zombie stage later, in order for this to get really out of hand. Especially if people reanimate automatically on death, and it wasn't known at first. Hospitals might be the first places to get overrun, actually.
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Old December 9 2010, 08:44 PM   #662
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

Peter the Younger wrote: View Post
Ironically, the same thing that makes zombies biologically implausible is what makes disastrous counter-strategies more likely; the authorities simply can't/won't accept that these things are reanimated corpses that can only be stopped in a very specific way.
That's not really irony; it's just consistency. It's implausible to them the same way it's implausible to us. The only difference is that if we choose to reject the implausibility, the worst case is an Internet flame war. If they reject the implausibility, it means a disastrous defeat.


Reverend wrote: View Post
I have to say this is a fun discussion. I wonder what it is about these end-of-the-world scenarios that makes them so engaging when logically they should be just terrifying.
Because those situations could never really happen here.





...right????
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Old December 9 2010, 09:01 PM   #663
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

Having said that, I do agree that really, you would need mass infection throughout the population, then the zombie stage later, in order for this to get really out of hand. Especially if people reanimate automatically on death, and it wasn't known at first. Hospitals might be the first places to get overrun, actually.
I agree. Something with a very, very long incubation period and easy transmission person-to-person could be endemic to the population before anyone even knew it existed. That would create the numbers needed to give the zombie plague a shot.

Going the other way - to 28 Days Later, where any slight scratch turns you into one of the "ragers" in mere seconds - used to sound good to me, but it's got its own problems. One advantage to a slow-acting bug is that you can get infected and then drive yourself to another time zone before you zombie out - so the infection can effectively appear everywhere at once. The "rage virus" can only advance as fast as a man can walk/run after getting infected - and not even that fast if the victims don't move in straight lines. So if the "rage virus" appeared in California today, we'd have weeks to plan how to stop it on at the Mississippi.
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Old December 9 2010, 09:33 PM   #664
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

Morpheus 02 wrote: View Post
Ryan wrote: View Post
Corran Horn wrote: View Post
I think World War Z plays up the scenario that the US lacked the political will to do anything in terms of a measured, reasoned military response because they were in full-on 'deny' mode well into the zombie crisis.
The chapter covering the Battle of Yonkers is definitely worth checking out. It's a very plausible scenario on how the military could FUBAR the whole thing up.
i just read that...and yeah, some "great" ways to explain how our forces were hurt.

i would also add a couple of other things:

overzealous/callous soldiers who who shoot bitten (but not dead) kids, and doing so in front of their loved ones.

That would make some poeple snap, and maybe blame ALL military for that killing, and then take out the soldiers unexpectedly. ("You killed my baby! She was just a little sick. What? We , eat this!")
One thing I could see is soldiers losing their resolve...based on the fact that the zombies used to be humans as well as that their own families are directly in danger, wherever they may be.
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Old December 9 2010, 10:01 PM   #665
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

FluffyUnbound wrote: View Post
Having said that, I do agree that really, you would need mass infection throughout the population, then the zombie stage later, in order for this to get really out of hand. Especially if people reanimate automatically on death, and it wasn't known at first. Hospitals might be the first places to get overrun, actually.
I agree. Something with a very, very long incubation period and easy transmission person-to-person could be endemic to the population before anyone even knew it existed. That would create the numbers needed to give the zombie plague a shot.
I haven't read the WD comic so I don't know their back story, but Brooks has the infection spring board from a few isolated cases to full blown pandemic by having it crop in China first (more or less.) The idea being that the mindset of the Chinese authorities would be to try and suppress it rather than admit there's a problem. Nobody is given a chance to really study the condition and everyone is just told to keep quiet. Before you know it, infected organs from live donors are being smuggled into the west by the triads, blood stocks are tainted before anyone knows there's a horde shuffling their way into India.

What really struck me a plausible about WWZ was the placebo that some unethical pharmaceutical company sold as a working vaccine against "African rabies." Brooks basically had humanity dooming themselves as much as anything else.
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Old December 9 2010, 10:05 PM   #666
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

Reverend wrote: View Post
FluffyUnbound wrote: View Post
Having said that, I do agree that really, you would need mass infection throughout the population, then the zombie stage later, in order for this to get really out of hand. Especially if people reanimate automatically on death, and it wasn't known at first. Hospitals might be the first places to get overrun, actually.
I agree. Something with a very, very long incubation period and easy transmission person-to-person could be endemic to the population before anyone even knew it existed. That would create the numbers needed to give the zombie plague a shot.
I don't haven't read the WD comic so I don't know their back story, but Brooks has the infection spring board from a few isolated cases to full blown pandemic by having it crop un in China first (more or less.) The idea being that the mindset of the Chinese authorities would be to try and suppress it rather than admit there's a problem. Nobody is given a chance to really study the condition and everyone is just told to keep quiet. Before you know it, infected organs from live donors are being smuggled into the west by the triads, blood stocks are tainted before anyone knows there's a horde shuffling their way into India.

What really struck me a plausible about WWZ was the placebo that some unethical pharmaceutical company sold as a working vaccine against "African rabies." Brooks basically had humanity dooming themselves as much as anything else.
Brooks did do a good job with that. He takes full advantage of the fact that it's possible to carry his version of the zombie infection for long enough to travel continental distances.

He also has his zombies be able to walk along the bottom of the ocean, which admittedly would make defending fixed points more difficult.

Romero has his zombies not cross water [at least until Land of the Dead] and I guess Brooks saw pretty clearly the huge strategic disadvantage that would give his zombie forces.
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Old December 9 2010, 10:25 PM   #667
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

FluffyUnbound wrote: View Post
Brooks did do a good job with that. He takes full advantage of the fact that it's possible to carry his version of the zombie infection for long enough to travel continental distances.

He also has his zombies be able to walk along the bottom of the ocean, which admittedly would make defending fixed points more difficult.
Wouldn't *anything* on the ocean floor be crushed by the water pressure? Certainly anything that had once been human.
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Old December 9 2010, 10:27 PM   #668
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
FluffyUnbound wrote: View Post
Brooks did do a good job with that. He takes full advantage of the fact that it's possible to carry his version of the zombie infection for long enough to travel continental distances.

He also has his zombies be able to walk along the bottom of the ocean, which admittedly would make defending fixed points more difficult.
Wouldn't *anything* on the ocean floor be crushed by the water pressure? Certainly anything that had once been human.
I was a little unclear about the details of how that worked.

But he has scenes where dozens of zombies are clinging to the hulls of submarines, for example.

And zombies walk up on to the beaches of all islands.
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Old December 9 2010, 10:32 PM   #669
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

FluffyUnbound wrote: View Post
Having said that, I do agree that really, you would need mass infection throughout the population, then the zombie stage later, in order for this to get really out of hand. Especially if people reanimate automatically on death, and it wasn't known at first. Hospitals might be the first places to get overrun, actually.
I agree. Something with a very, very long incubation period and easy transmission person-to-person could be endemic to the population before anyone even knew it existed. That would create the numbers needed to give the zombie plague a shot.
From "Zombies:A Hunters Guide" by Joseph McCullough, with some paraphrasing...

"As a general rule, around thirty days seems the cutoff point for a corpse to be reanimated...by then, much of the internal tissue of the body and many organs have turned to mush and escaping gases have ruptured the skin. The first to be affected in a hot zone will be the most recently dead. Hospitals usually form ground zero for a zombie outbreak. One moment, everything is business-as-usual; in the next, a man who has just died on the operating table gets to his feet and attacks the surgeon. Within a few minutes, the corpses in the hospital morgue also reanimate. In less than an hour, funeral parlors and crematoriums are also affected.

There is a grim irony to outbreaks commonly starting in hospitals. Not only are they places where death and corpses are common, but they are also generally full of the ill and injured who can offer no resistance to an attacking zombie. Thus, a single zombie can kill numerous people in a short space of time. These victims, now part of the recent dead, will also reanimate and join the rampage. In such a way, the number of zombies can easily multiply in the first few hours."

Now, since we are only seeing the zombiepocalypse from the point-of-view of our group, with only glimpses of the bigger picture provided by Jenner in the CDC, we just don't know how it began, what steps were taken to prevent the outbreak, if it indeed went completely global, who is left alive out there, if the authorities triaged the metropolitan areas and began to fortify smaller towns, what's going on. All we see is what the group knows.
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Old December 9 2010, 11:23 PM   #670
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

Anyone else think the helicopter Rick saw might be a tip of the hat to the original Dawn of the Dead?
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Old December 9 2010, 11:27 PM   #671
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

SicOne wrote: View Post
There is a grim irony to outbreaks commonly starting in hospitals. Not only are they places where death and corpses are common, but they are also generally full of the ill and injured who can offer no resistance to an attacking zombie.
Now that really is ironic. (Compared to Peter the Younger's earlier post.)
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Old December 9 2010, 11:47 PM   #672
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

Yukikaze wrote: View Post
If we surmise that it (whatever it is in the end) infected the entire population, killed (and then resurrected) a large portion - say 60-70% - then I'm sure that this would also have taken place within the military - wouldn't it?
It's not like all military instalations are sealed airtight and the air filtered for the cause of what has been killing all the people.
And in this case a large portion of your supporting personnel (logistics, maintenance) as well as a sizable portion of your fighting force would also be sick-gone-resurrected just like that (perhaps even in a matter of hours/days?), removing a large nummber of people with the training to fight the enemy as a cohesive force.
That's a good thought. It's very likely the military was destabilized right from the beginning.

sojourner wrote: View Post
Anyone else think the helicopter Rick saw might be a tip of the hat to the original Dawn of the Dead?
Good way to look at it, I guess. I thought it was foreshadowing, but apparently it wasn't; might as well take it as DOTD homage.
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Old December 10 2010, 10:33 AM   #673
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

sojourner wrote: View Post
Anyone else think the helicopter Rick saw might be a tip of the hat to the original Dawn of the Dead?
In a way, yes; however, in the comic series, our gang did witness a helicopter land (but that event and subsequent events related to it took place some time in the future from where we are at now in the TV series). So they might follow up on the helicopter in Season 2.

Or...this might be what inspired the trip to the CDC, the idea that Rick might have thought the chopper was heading there. Clearly it was going somewhere.
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Old December 10 2010, 10:35 AM   #674
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
SicOne wrote: View Post
There is a grim irony to outbreaks commonly starting in hospitals. Not only are they places where death and corpses are common, but they are also generally full of the ill and injured who can offer no resistance to an attacking zombie.
Now that really is ironic. (Compared to Peter the Younger's earlier post.)
You've got me curious. Where is that post? I'd like to see it, but don't necessarily wanna wade through forty-plus pages to find it.

EDIT:Never mind; saw his post, above.

Last edited by SicOne; December 10 2010 at 10:40 AM. Reason: found what I was looking for
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Old December 10 2010, 10:38 AM   #675
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Re: AMC's The Walking Dead Season 1 Discussion & Spoilers

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
FluffyUnbound wrote: View Post
Brooks did do a good job with that. He takes full advantage of the fact that it's possible to carry his version of the zombie infection for long enough to travel continental distances.

He also has his zombies be able to walk along the bottom of the ocean, which admittedly would make defending fixed points more difficult.
Wouldn't *anything* on the ocean floor be crushed by the water pressure? Certainly anything that had once been human.
Yeah, that's what I thought, too. Certainly the Zs don't need oxygen to survive, at least in the Max Brooks Universe ("Maxiverse"?), but all that water pressure should squeeze the Zs heads like zits, destroying the brain.

Walking across a bay or a river? I can see that. But not the deep, deep ocean. And how do they climb to the continental shelf? Gaping plot hole, Max.
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