Which should I watch? TNG or Enterprise?

[ProtoAvatar]

BillJ
"Star Trek wouldn't launch today with 1960's effects."

We're not comparing TOS or TNG as they would be filmed today with Ent; we're comparing TOS and TNG as they are with Ent.

The fact that TOS's, TNG's popularity had more to do with the tv environment during their airing than with their quality is a certainty.
There were a number of recent shows of equal or even superior quality that failed by a really large margin to reach TOS's, TNG's popularity.


BillJ, sonak
"But they were a far and away better product."
"But if you think ENT Seasons 3-4 stack up against TNG seasons 3-6 then.... I guess different tastes and all that, because that's kind of stunning to me."

The only argument you present in support of such affirmations is your 'taste'.

TOS is really old - about half the episodes are too cheesy or just boring;
In parts, TNG hasn't aged well, either - recently, I watched a few of the less 'popular' episodes (which comprise a large part of the show) - cardboard characters, formulaic problem-solving, etc.
Their episodic 'no consequences' format doesn't do them any favours, too, when compared to arc-based space operas.

I stand by my affirmation:
"The first two seasons of TNG are weaker then Ent's fist two seasons; and season 3 and 4 of Ent can compete with every TNG season you care to name."

[BillJ]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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The only argument you present in support of such affirmations is your 'taste'.

TOS is really old - about half the episodes are too cheesy or just boring;
In parts, TNG hasn't aged well, either - recently, I watched a few of the less 'popular' episodes (which comprise a large part of the show) - cardboard characters, formulaic problem-solving, etc.
Their episodic format doesn't do them any favours, too, when compared to arc-based space operas.

I stand by my affirmation:
"The first two seasons of TNG are weaker then Ent's fist two seasons; and season 3 and 4 of Ent can compete with every TNG season you care to name."

The only argument you present in support of such affirmations is your 'taste'.

[ProtoAvatar]

BillJ

"The only argument you present in support of such affirmations is your 'taste'."

Hardly. Unlike you, I said a few of the 'whys' that make TOS/TNG show their age.

[BillJ]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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BillJ

"The only argument you present in support of such affirmations is your 'taste'."

Hardly. Unlike you, I said a few of the 'whys' that make TOS/TNG show their age.

No, you really didn't. You spout the same crap over and over and claim it as fact. TV stations usually don't repeat shows over and over that have no audience. The Next Generation currently runs in strip syndication, on SyFy channel and on BBC America. The Original Series ran in strip syndication for nearly thirty years, had runs on both TV Land and Sci-Fi channel and had a total clean up of the filmed footage and new special effects for a two year weekly run in syndication.

Seems to me that an audience exists for these properties to this day in the United States. Can't say the same for the siblings.

Get back to me when Paramount green-lights either Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager or Star Trek: Enterprise 'The Motion Picture'.

[ProtoAvatar]

BillJ
"No, you really didn't."

Actually READ what you quote, BillJ:
The only argument you present in support of such affirmations is your 'taste'.

TOS is really old - about half the episodes are too cheesy or just boring;
In parts, TNG hasn't aged well, either - recently, I watched a few of the less 'popular' episodes (which comprise a large part of the show) - cardboard characters, formulaic problem-solving, etc.
Their episodic format doesn't do them any favours, too, when compared to arc-based space operas.

I stand by my affirmation:
"The first two seasons of TNG are weaker then Ent's fist two seasons; and season 3 and 4 of Ent can compete with every TNG season you care to name."

[sonak]

The episodic criticism gets tossed at TNG a lot, but this is an example of having expectations of a past show that are based on a current cultural context. Basically, very few shows were serialized like so many are these days. And TOS, which TNG was a sequel to, was also episodic in format. It would've been unrealistic for TNG to approach storytelling like DS9 did.


Yes, apart from the Worf-honor-restoration arc and some one-or -two-episode follow-ups to other events there were very few long-lasting storylines on TNG. But so what? Individual high quality stories can still be appreciated. Not every episode has to have long term ramifications to Trek canon to be good.


It's like criticizing Twilight Zone or Outer Limits for being anthology series. That's just their format, it's not a strike against them.

Similarly, calling TOS "cheesy" or "boring" just shows that you're judging it by what sci-fi shows in 2010 are like, which is just a pointless exercise. Time context matters. Special effects advancement matters. No doubt you find 1950 movies "unrealistic" for not dealing with sex or swear words in a candid way. Again, this is a silly way to approach older works of literature, media, etc.

[ProtoAvatar]

sonak
"Time context matters. Special effects advancement matters."

Yes, sonak, there are good reasons for TOS/TNG/other older shows to have a 'no consequences' format, to have poor special effects, to have too much cheese, formulaic problem solving, etc.
This does not change the fact that they are so.
And the comparison between TOS/TNG and Ent/other newer shows is not about fairness. It's about determining which are the better shows from the perspective of a 2010 viewer.

[BillJ]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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It's about determining which are the better shows from the perspective of a 2010 viewer.

If the 2010 viewer is 12. But at some point people grow up and begin to appreciate that there's more to the world than what is just outside their window.

[RAMA]

Enterprise is just fine for viewing, worth watching, but I always have to go with the best ST series: STNG. Enterprise season 4 stands up with just about any other season of a ST show, and if headed in that direction for future seasons, I think Enteprise would have compared favorably with ANY ST show..but it was not meant to be.

RAMA

[sonak]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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sonak
"Time context matters. Special effects advancement matters."

Yes, sonak, there are good reasons for TOS/TNG/other older shows to have a 'no consequences' format, to have poor special effects, to have too much cheese, formulaic problem solving, etc.
This does not change the fact that they are so.
And the comparison between TOS/TNG and Ent/other newer shows is not about fairness. It's about determining which are the better shows from the perspective of a 2010 viewer.

Well, I wasn't saying those shows were INFERIOR for having those problems stemming from the context of when they were made. Far from it-I'd still take TOS of the 1960s, and TNG of the 1980s, unaltered, unremastered, and in all of their awesomeness over ENT any day.



I was just saying that issues like special effects and episodic formats are natural results of their time. I'm willing to overlook dated effects and some cheesiness because TOS and TNG had great characters, great stories, and they don't feel tired and worn out the way ENT did as it limped along for the first couple seasons on one-note recycled plots until it got some spark in it the last couple of seasons.

[DevilEyes]

Capt_Pickirk wrote:

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*cough* "Threshold" *cough*

Yes, there are individual episodes that are as bad. But you can't find a season nearly as bad as TNG S1.

In fact, only TNG S2 comes close (saved by a few gems like "The Measure of a Man").

sonak wrote:

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So yes, ENT seasons 3-4 may be marginally better overall than TNG season 1

Eh?! ENT seasons 1-2 are way better than TNG season 1. TNG season 1 is by far the worst season of any Trek ever. ENT seasons 3-4, on the other hand, are very good and can be compared with any season of Trek.

BillJ wrote:

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I would rather watch Angel One and Justice for 24 hours straight than be subjected to Imaginary Friend, Rascals or Sub Rosa one more time.

Well, maybe you have a point - Angel One and Justice have the cheese factor going for them, in the "so bad they're good" kind of way. You may also throw in Code of Honor, The Last Outpost, The Neutral Zone, plus The Outrageous Okona and Up the Long Ladder from S2.

On the other hand, we have Precious Cargo, Marauders, Acquisition, Unexpected, Bounty... also really bad, but less fun. Besides, they only manage to be marginally offensive to women, while the above mentioned TNG episodes manage to genuinely offend women, black people, Irish people, and 20th century humans in general.

[ProtoAvatar]

sonak
"I'm willing to overlook dated effects and some cheesiness"
Exactly. You are willing to overlook it because you're a TOS/TNG fan.
A casual viewer will not be so indulgent.


"ENT limped along for the first couple seasons on one-note recycled plots"
Many of Ent's first 2 seasons plots have, indeed, similarities with plots from TOS and TNG.
If Ent's plots are "one-note recycled plots", then TOS's, TNG's plots are equally "one-note recycled" from the perspective of a new viewer who will look at the shows today, NOT 30 years ago.


Have you even looked recently at the 2 first seasons of TNG? At the last season of TOS? This, while trying to put down the nostagia/fan-of-the-show glasses?

Most episodes, sonak, are unwatchable. They're not even 'so bad they're good'. They're just bad.
Nowhere in its course does Ent even approach that level of awfulness.

[BillJ]

DevilEyes wrote:

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On the other hand, we have Precious Cargo, Marauders, Acquisition, Unexpected, Bounty... also really bad, but less fun. Besides, they only manage to be marginally offensive to women, while the above mentioned TNG episodes manage to genuinely offend women, black people, Irish people, and 20th century humans in general.

See I'd rather a show actually have the balls to offend people than to be so bland that they put me to sleep. YMMV.

Though I really liked Unexpected.

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Have you even looked recently at the 2 first seasons of TNG? At the last season of TOS? This, while trying to put down the nostagia/fan-of-the-show glasses?

So you're saying that the only way one can enjoy shows from the 60's, 70's and 80's is through nostalgia? I really feel sorry for you.

You may want to go back and re-examine those shows you so easily dismiss as nostalgia. There's a reason we're still talking about and watching them twenty, thirty and even forty years later.

[BillJ]

DevilEyes wrote:

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Well, maybe you have a point - Angel One and Justice have the cheese factor going for them, in the "so bad they're good" kind of way. You may also throw in Code of Honor, The Last Outpost, The Neutral Zone, plus The Outrageous Okona and Up the Long Ladder from S2.

I always have enjoyed season 1 and 2 of The Next Generation far more than anything else that came later for one sole reason... it was 'fun'. It seemed starting with season 3 that Rick Berman started buying the hype that Star Trek had some type of deep social statement to make.

It's not nostalgia nor is it rose-colored glasses, Star Trek at that point was simply more fun.

Think I'm gonna go pull Encounter at Farpoint off the shelf.

[ProtoAvatar]

BillJ wrote:

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So you're saying that the only way one can enjoy shows from the 60's, 70's and 80's is through nostalgia? I really feel sorry for you.

As usual, you fail to even read what I wrote, BillJ.
I said you and sonak have an exaggerated opinion of TOS's, TNG's value due to notalgia/being fans.

And as usual, the only "argument" you can come up with is name-calling -- which is just pathetic, BillJ.

You may want to go back and re-examine those shows you so easily dismiss as nostalgia. There's a reason we're still talking about and watching them twenty, thirty and even forty years later.

And again you don't see I already addressed this - repeatedly.
Really, BillJ? Is it really necessary to have to baby-step explain every single detail when talking to you?

The main reason for TOS's, TNG's large fan-base was the past tv environment, conductive to creating such a large fan-base.