The Dark Knight

[Kegg]

Goliath wrote:

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Dent is that he's really not the White Knight that he's built up to be. Dent is a flawed character from the start. Among other things, he's a control freak. He is more than willing to cheat and deceive other people to get what he wants and to get his way.

This is all true, and if Harvey Dent had become an out of control vigilante after being horrible scarred... I would have bought that. We get a hint of that earlier in the film - he's willing to go too far in the name of what he wants.

But after the love of his life has been killed by this sick bastard the Joker, he's going to embrace existential uncertainy and kill in the name of that... thus leaving the Joker unharmed but Comissioner Gordon not so.

See this is not something I buy. There's hints that Dent could go off into the dark end and become a guy pretty much out to get what he wants, but there isn't a logical sequence where this random chance is what he wants - I can't see any plausible scene between him and the Joker that doesn't end up with him trying to kill the Joker.

He may even realise as much as you postulate... but that would still require him to kill the Joker in rage and revenge and shame.

Sort of don't see a way this Dent can avoid this, coin toss or no. We needed more development here - a better look at his instability - then the film's running time or plotting could realistically allow.

[startrekwatcher]

I think it is overrated. It was too long, way too much action, Two-Face was wasted, Gyllenhal sucked and as a result I could have cared less about her death and its effect on Harvey & Bruce. Also rather than being a well constructed narrative it was just one long patchwork of several different setpieces that didn't add up to a whole lot.

Pretty average fare in my opinion.

[Shazam!]

Admiral_Young wrote:

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How was the excursion to China ridiculous? I agree that it was definitely Bond influenced but there have been elements of Bond to Batman in the comics. Batman needed to bring Lau back to Gotham. I found it very reasonably depicted and executed except for the automatic plane. I realize this was meant to imply a pre-Batwing existence but still, aside from that I thought it was a great sequence.

If the Batwing had shown up that would have been awesome.

It was inevitable that Ledger's Joker was going to be popular...I'm not sure how inspiring 'a thousand Halloween costumes' makes this a bad Batman film. It's not like Jack Nicolson's Joker didn't inspire it's own myriad of costumes after that version came out.

Yeah, but Nicholson's Joker costume is miles better.

I also don't get how it can be called a terrible Batman movie.

Batman seriously considers giving up the cowl. It's like they got it the wrong way round. If anything, he should be considering giving up Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne is the disguise, not Batman.

[Trekker4747]

I think, in these movies at least, they're both the disguise. We know the Bruce Wayne the public gets to see, the wise-ass, babe toting, speeding, ignorant to world events playboy, is a "disguise" and not the "real Bruce Wayne. Batman is a disguise because as Batman Bruce Wayne has to act and behave in a manner he doesn't agree with and even go to extremes (the listening/"SONAR" device, to accomplish his goals.

But then we've the "real" Bruce Wayne. The Bruce Wayne he shows Lucious, Alfred and Rachel. In these movies Bruce is never really "himself" except when he's with these people and even then only when his guard is down.

I think Harvey Dent's "change" makes some sens but, really, needed some more pushing. We see how "unstable" he is in the scene where he has a captured Arkham patient in an alley and is questioning him about The Joker. His use of the coin also shows how much Dent likes to manipulate people. But he was overly sold as nothing more than a slick, smooth-talking, D.A. who was good at his job with a hint or two of an "edge" (again, the alley scene) but yeah his turnabout into Two-Face seems pretty quick. But it's possible the death of Rachel, the betrayal of the police (most notably Gordon not taking Dent's word that the men in MCU were crooked), the betrayal of Batman (with the apparent saving of him rather than Rachel) and his horrible disfigurement was enough to just push him over the edge. From his POV he had pretty much lost everything he wanted and had worked for and, not only that, he was horribly disfigured. So it was time to get his revenge on those who hurt him.

Though I agree it would've been nice if the last we see of Dent is when he reveals himself in the hospital and then as the movie goes on we just presume him dead in the explosion, he gets revealed in a final scene and then we use him in the second movie. Because, Eckhart did a really good job with the part and, really, needed a whole movie to flesh things out better.

The Hong Kong scene was a bit gratuitous, but fun. Although it has "International Incident" written all over it.

[Harvey]

Kegg wrote:

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History of Violence wasn't bad either. And I got a soft spot for Persepolis.

Thus the qualifier in the parenthetical. Otherwise we'd have to start talking about AMERICAN SPLENDOR, which I think is terrific, amongst a number of other comic book movies outside the superhero genre.

[Goliath]

Trekker4747 wrote:

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I think Harvey Dent's "change" makes some sens but, really, needed some more pushing.

I do agree that it was too rushed. As I suggested, my analysis was based on hints and clues picked up over repeated viewings. But you shouldn't have to watch a movie a few times to make sense of a major character's development.

The biggest criticism I would level at The Dark Knight is that it was a quart squeezed into a pint-pot. Nolan tried to do too much in too little time. The pacing was positively breathless at times.

[Showdown]

I love this movie.

Its about a trinity. Three heroes working to bring Gotham out of the darkness. Gordon, Dent, and Wayne are flawed heroes. They work tirelessly and nearly acheive victory several times. Its also about a monster. An insane genius, Joker is just as determined to plunge Gotham into madness.

My favorite scene is the press confrence, where Wayne was surrounded by his "adoring fans" as they turned on Dent and demanded Batman's head on a pike. It showed that Joker turn people against their heroes. It was realistic.

However, the heroes stuck together, and even though they work outside of each others knowledge, they trust each other to do the right thing. It paid off and the Joker was caught. Victory was fleeting as Joker is a mastermind.

In the end, the trinity is broken. Two of them cannot work together and the other one, the best of them, is dead. Joker wins.

[Agent Richard07]

I was thinking about the movie today and Batman working openly and directly with the police force to the point where he's right there in the police station doing an interrogation didn't quite ring true. I also wondered if something like that would have been ridiculed if it was in a non-Nolan movie.

[Trekker4747]

Agent Richard07 wrote:

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I was thinking about the movie today and Batman working openly and directly with the police force to the point where he's right there in the police station doing an interrogation didn't quite ring true. I also wondered if something like that would have been ridiculed if it was in a non-Nolan movie.

Scenes like that are often dumb, and in the context of the "Nolan 'Verse" it doesn't hold very true. But they're easy to give a pass to when your movie-maker buys some forgiveness and forget with a good story, characterization, directing and production design.

So it's easier to "forgive" Nolan for the OTT interrogation scene because the movie up to that point, and beyond that point, is really good. He gets a pass. Not because of WHO he is but because what he has done.

If a similar scene was done in, say, "Batman and Robin" a movie that was already filled with shit then, no, people wouldn't forgive the filmmaker because no forgiveness was earned.

[Admiral_Young]

Batman never really was working directly and openly with the police. He was working openly with GORDON and most of the rest of the force only tolerated the Dark Knight's presence. The scene during the montage at the end where Gordon smashes the signal (easily one of my favorite in the film for the emotional overtones it provokes) you can see the cops behind him bobbing up and down in anticipation of the hunt against Batman. Particularly the cop who was in the Joker's cell and about to beat him up for killing his friends. That guy is ready to pounce on Batman.

[Trekker4747]

You'd think the whole "Batman killed cops" thing would've struck people as odd and out of character for the vigilante who worked to "help" the police for a year.

The final montage-like scene over the end of the movie is one of my favorite moments. Gordon's V.O. intercut with Dent's public funeral service, Batman fleeing the police, the aforementioned scene with the spot-light. It's very well done and it'll be interesting to see how in the next movie Batman gets back in Gotham's good graces.

But there was just something about that scene with setting Batman up as the "Dark Knight" was just powerful and awesome.

[suarezguy]

I didn't like the film very much, starting with Gotham looking too modern and sleek rather than otherworldly or grim.
Batman hoping to be able to retire after a year made him feel too young and he often felt like a supporting character (a charge often made against Batman Returns, and here the villains weren't interesting enough to make up for it).
The Joker was alright but not as good as he was hyped up to be; he could have used more dark humor to be more unique.
Batman taking responsibility for Dent's crimes was a good example of how short-thinking he was. There could be another public hero later but in order to preserve the image of one who died (I disagree that the truth, or at least ambiguity, would be so devastating to people), he gets the cops against him rather than continue to use their help. He also risks the public accepting murderous vigilantism if they accept him by making that part of his image.

I enjoyed Batman Returns, Batman Begins and Spider-Man 2 more, I thought they had better mood, character development and action.

[Admiral_Young]

The Joker wasn't unique enough? Wow. I thought this might have been the most unique take on the character in years aside from the Brian Azzerello version which he claims wasn't based on 'The Dark Knight' character. As for dark humor, I thought there was plenty myself. My favorite scene is when he is walking away from the hospital and is waiting for the explosion and when it doesn't happen right away starts to wonder if he fucked up or not. Great Joker moment.

[Trekker4747]

The "Joker Moment" that really sold me on Ledger's take is when he first meets with the mob bosses in (what looks like) the cafeteria kitchen. He comes in with a bit of a forced, stammering, "Joker laugh", he's wearing a fairly classic-looking Joker outfit (a purple suit), he does the "magic trick" with the mob guy's body gaurd, he sums up the state of the mob in the intervening time between the first and current movie, he predicts the next plot point (Lao's betrayal once caught), he presents his plan and then leaves. And along the way there's nice scenes of Joker's "insanity" like his "card" being a Joker from a deck of playing cards and then having the suit-coat filled with gernades tethered to his hand as an "escape plan."

The best part is when one of the mob guys asks if the Joker really thinks he can come in there, extort all of Gotham's various crime syndicates out of 50% of their massed earnings and then just be allowed to walk out the door. Joker says, simply, "Yes."

Other nice touches in there like when the Joker says to someone, pointedly, that he's non insane and other great moments. That whole scene was just The Joker, to me, all the way and sold Ledger's version of the character. Yeah, it's a bit disappointing it was more "The Joker's movie" than Batman's but Ledger's performance as the Joker was just so awesome that I didn't mind.

I just wish, again, that Eckhart's Two-Face could've been a similar grand treatment in the third movie because Two-Face is one of few others in Batman's rogues gallery who could carry a movie by himself.

[Tulaberry whine]

stj wrote:

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I think the particular kind of badness in Dark Knight is shown most clearly in the ferry scene. No one on the ferries has any good reason to believe the Joker is a man of his word. But everyone is written as believing perfect nonsense so the movie can pose a fake dramatic choice, supposedly with existential implications, no less!

I agree. You know going into a superhero movie you're going to have to suspend disbelief - but this plot point (in fact, the entire last act) was ridiculous on too many levels.