The Problems of Remastering TNG, DS9 & VOY

[USS KG5]

trevanian wrote:

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Film's still got a ton more latitude than any other originating format, so I don't know where you get off dismissing it. Maybe when there is a 4K TV set in ____ years, you'll be able to really SEE just how much info there is on a 35mm film frame.

If TNG is in decent nick on film they did a TERRIBLE job of putting it on DVD, same for DS9.

I'm clearly not dissing film full stop but Trek does not look good on DVD, and was put together with a bit of care, so logically without a massive amount of work it would not look good on Blu Ray.

And it wasn't CHEAP either ... stock price is such a concern that some pictures shoot 3-perf instead of 4-perf to save 25% of the film cost (they will sacrifice that much just to be able to shoot on film as opposed to digital capture.)

Well I don't actually remember saying they should drop film in favour of digital anywhere, I was just talking about the apparent quality of the masters used for the DVDs.

Now with a complete remaster, including rebuilding the SFX, going back, rescanning and cleaning up the negative and really doing a super job, I'm sure all the shows would look amazing. Would cost an absolute fortune though.

[TheGodBen]

USS KG5 wrote:

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If TNG is in decent nick on film they did a TERRIBLE job of putting it on DVD, same for DS9.

I'm clearly not dissing film full stop but Trek does not look good on DVD, and was put together with a bit of care, so logically without a massive amount of work it would not look good on Blu Ray.

That's the point, TNG and DS9 (and Voyager) do not have film masters, they were edited on videotape. All the shows were shot on film but they weren't edited on film because videotape was faster and/or cheaper for that process, and what is on the DVDs is the transfer from videotape, which is why they look so crappy.

If any of the shows is to be released on blu-ray it would involve collecting all the film (which supposedly still exists) and editing it all together shot for shot so that it matches the original videotape master. It would be a long, expensive process, especially once the special effects are added into the mix, so it's not likely to ever happen.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Although I believe the editing "cues" (if this is the right term) still exist, so the original editing could be reconstructed through software. Assuming the new FX sequences have exactly the same length of time as the originals, I think they could make it work.

[cubdukat]

I'd settle for a DVD remastering. I'm currently watching the 3rd season of DS9 on DVD, and I don't remember the image quality being quite that bad. The bitrate doesn't even break 5 megabits per episode most of the time, and for a dual-layer disc without supplementary materials, that's just wrong.

I suspect Paramount probably abandoned the upscaling approach because they knew fans would never stand for it. So I would suspect the only avenues left for them are digging up all the film elements they used and re-compositing everything for HD, or redoing the effects in CGI. Personally, I think they should avoid the last one, given the disappointing (IMHO) job CBS Digital did with TOS. There were so many opportunites they just missed.

[jefferiestubes8]

cubdukat wrote:

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I'd settle for a DVD remastering. I'm currently watching the 3rd season of DS9 on DVD, and I don't remember the image quality being quite that bad.

This is not going to happen. DS9 DVD sets have made their money and CBS Home Video knows it. TNG is still a property though that can bring in money and the next avenue would be syndication in high definition as well as Blu-ray releases of fan collectives to start.

[ichab]

Frankly I think they look fine the way they are. I'm rewatching my DS9 DVDs on my blu-ray player and new 40 inch HD TV and the show looks better than it ever did. I highly doubt I would shell out more money for this show that I already own.

[Magellan]

TNG, DS9 and Voyager will all get a blu ray release, it's inconceivable that they would pass up this chance. It's my bet that it will be some kind of upscaling though. Most people wont even know the difference anyway. After a few years I could see a proper HD re-edit of TNG, maybe for it's 30th anniversary, but not for the other two.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Magellan wrote:

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TNG, DS9 and Voyager will all get a blu ray release, it's inconceivable that they would pass up this chance. It's my bet that it will be some kind of upscaling though. Most people wont even know the difference anyway.

Oh, I think they will. And that's why it won't happen.

Why should Paramount go through all the trouble of releasing the shows on Blu-Ray without making them HD? Doing so would give exactly the same result as if the standard definition DVDs are played on a Blu-Ray player. (Remember, all HDTVs upscale all standard definition content anyway.) So why would they bother re-releasing the shows in a manner that will not give them anything new?

[Harvey]

Paramount could do what some more recent shows have done, like FIREFLY, in which the live action material is in 1080P but the visual effects are only at 480P. Of course, FIREFLY was originally shown that way, so it would take more work for a similar release of STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION, etc.

[BillJ]

Harvey wrote:

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Paramount could do what some more recent shows have done, like FIREFLY, in which the live action material is in 1080P but the visual effects are only at 480P. Of course, FIREFLY was originally shown that way, so it would take more work for a similar release of STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION, etc.

What would be the point? All the work talked about in this and other threads would still have to be done. Retrieving, scanning and re-editing all the original film elements. Then you would still have to re-do the effects (current ones which look terrible in 1080p).

If The Next Generation gets redone, I imagine they will go ahead and future proof it by doing the digital masters in 4k resolution.

[Harvey]

Well, that's just it, you wouldn't have to re-do the effects in that case.

Yes, it would probably look terrible (about as bad as the difference between visual effects and other footage on the BABYLON 5 DVDs, in fact), but it would be an easier and cheaper way for CBS Paramount to release the series on Blu-Ray than redoing the visual effects.

I'm not sure, upon reflection, if CBS Paramount would treat the series like that, however. I certainly wouldn't want to see a release along these lines, but it might be a serious possibility if CBS Paramount decides they don't want to invest the money into the series that would be required to recreate all the visual effects.

[ichab]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

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Oh, I think they will. And that's why it won't happen.

Why should Paramount go through all the trouble of releasing the shows on Blu-Ray without making them HD? Doing so would give exactly the same result as if the standard definition DVDs are played on a Blu-Ray player. (Remember, all HDTVs upscale all standard definition content anyway.) So why would they bother re-releasing the shows in a manner that will not give them anything new?

Because they are Paramount and they love milking a franchise whose fan base buys up anything with Star Trek on it?

We ARE talking about the same company that released TOS three times on DVD.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ THREE times? I'm aware of the original DVD releases that had two eps per disc, and then the season boxed sets. What else was there? And in any case, the season sets gave an obvious advantage - the convenience of having a whole season in one box. There can be no similar advantage here for DS9, TNG and Voyager, since they are already available in standard def season sets. The only possible way they could make those better would be to actually redo them in HD.

[Harvey]

1. TOS 2-episodes per volume sets.
2. TOS season sets.
3. TOS-remastered season sets (on DVD and BLU-RAY).

[Therin of Andor]

ichab wrote:

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We ARE talking about the same company that released TOS three times on DVD.

CBS is supposed to let TOS on DVD fall out-of-print?

New customers going into DVD stores expect/demand to see freshly-packaged DVDs to buy, not old, dusty sets that have been on shelves for years, or in packaging that looks antiquated when compared to non-ST new releases.