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Old November 17 2010, 03:04 AM   #166
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Dream wrote: View Post
Why does this movie need female characters anyway? With the exception of Catwomen in Batman Returns, all the women in the Batman movies have been boring. Batman doesn't need a love interest in every movie. It would be refreshing to have all the main characters in a movie be male for once.
Exactly. I mean, really, what opportunities have men actually had to star in action films? It's about time they got equal representation!
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Old November 17 2010, 03:15 AM   #167
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

the G-man wrote: View Post
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No, but it's a fair point, that it's potentially irresponsible to misrepresent a positive and indeed necessary cause such as environmentalism through a ridiculously evil supervillain like Ra's. Even if it's all in good fun and in the original spirit of the creation.
But, while most environmentalists are harmless, there are real eco-terrorists on earth, such as the Earth Liberation Front. Isn't Ras simply an extrapolation of those types?

And isn't worrying that Ras is going to make environmentalists look bad about as silly as thinking Two-Face is going to District Attorneys look bad?
Perhaps, although unlike DAs, Ra's isn't counterbalanced with numerous examples of "environmental heroes," unless they make an Animal Man movie.

You know, I'd watch that. Especially if Buddy wound up walking off the set and throwing Grant Morrison out a window.

But that's sort of the problem: responsible environmentalism is rather boring, involving billions of people consciously not doing things.
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Old November 17 2010, 03:33 AM   #168
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Dream wrote: View Post
Why does this movie need female characters anyway?
So it stands a chance of passing the Bechdel Test?

Okay, okay, it's unlikely that a Batman movie will ever pass the Bechdel Test, but still...
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Old November 17 2010, 03:56 AM   #169
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post
Myasishchev wrote: View Post
No, but it's a fair point, that it's potentially irresponsible to misrepresent a positive and indeed necessary cause such as environmentalism through a ridiculously evil supervillain like Ra's. Even if it's all in good fun and in the original spirit of the creation.
But, while most environmentalists are harmless, there are real eco-terrorists on earth, such as the Earth Liberation Front. Isn't Ras simply an extrapolation of those types?

And isn't worrying that Ras is going to make environmentalists look bad about as silly as thinking Two-Face is going to District Attorneys look bad?
Perhaps, although unlike DAs, Ra's isn't counterbalanced with numerous examples of "environmental heroes" ...
Other than, for example:
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Old November 17 2010, 04:06 AM   #170
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

the G-man wrote: View Post
But, while most environmentalists are harmless, there are real eco-terrorists on earth, such as the Earth Liberation Front.
The E.L.F. are not terrorists. Who have they killed? Who have they tried to kill? No one; their policies specifically prohibit harm to living entities. They are, at worst, eco-vandals. Would that our legitimate institutions be nearly that conscientious.

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Old November 17 2010, 04:16 AM   #171
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

I'm hoping that we'll get some casting news soon from "The Dark Knight Rises" other than just reports and rumors. Starting to get exciting.
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Old November 17 2010, 04:41 AM   #172
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Trent Roman wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post
But, while most environmentalists are harmless, there are real eco-terrorists on earth, such as the Earth Liberation Front.
The E.L.F. are not terrorists. Who have they killed?
There is neither a legal nor common sense requirement that a person have actually murdered someone-or even intended to murder someone-to be classified as a terrorist.

ELF has engaged in arson and bombings. The fact they haven't actually killed anyone, even accidentally, is simply a matter of luck.
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Old November 17 2010, 04:44 AM   #173
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Dream wrote: View Post
Why does this movie need female characters anyway? With the exception of Catwomen in Batman Returns, all the women in the Batman movies have been boring. Batman doesn't need a love interest in every movie. It would be refreshing to have all the main characters in a movie be male for once.
To spite jokes of the contrary, Bruce Wayne isn't actually gay but rather a straight playboy socialite. Always having a woman or 3 on your arm and as a love interest is usually a large part of that image.
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Old November 17 2010, 05:00 AM   #174
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

the G-man wrote: View Post
Myasishchev wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post

But, while most environmentalists are harmless, there are real eco-terrorists on earth, such as the Earth Liberation Front. Isn't Ras simply an extrapolation of those types?

And isn't worrying that Ras is going to make environmentalists look bad about as silly as thinking Two-Face is going to District Attorneys look bad?
Perhaps, although unlike DAs, Ra's isn't counterbalanced with numerous examples of "environmental heroes" ...
snip
Fair enough. But I can't think of one that's entered the public consciousness like, say, Jack McCoy has for good DAs. Maybe the guy that Australian dude played in Avatar.

Also, in most of the highest profile examples--Fern Gully, Avatar--are the protagonists really fighting for environment? I'd argue they're not, certainly not first and foremost. They are fighting colonial oppression. There is an environmental dimension to their opposition, but the central conflict is not really about protecting a biosphere but protecting liberty and property rights. The philosophy of Avatar is fundamentally not much different than the philosophy of, say, Inglorious Basterds.

The Planeteers fought for environment, but the Planeteers is also a cartoon even children realize was kind of retarded, I mean sub-He-Man in its motivations and realism, and dangerously supposes that the solution to oil spills is to beat someone up. Although I guess that's not entirely incorrect, if you have a soulless blue golem beat enough oil men to death, you will eventually prevent oil spills.
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Old November 17 2010, 05:13 AM   #175
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Batman needs a love interest to keep him anchored. As I stated a few pages ago the purpose of Rachel Dawes was to humanize and anchor Bruce Wayne, to give him a reason to think that maybe there was a chance that his mission could end and he could actually get to be happy like everyone else. "The Dark Knight" proved though that while this notion was well meaning simply isn't possible for someone as driven and committed to the course of action that Bruce is. The casting of female characters continues to provide that sense of humanism for Bruce and to create conflict and drama. Female characters are almost a necessity for a character like Batman in my opinion. Especially if you're not planning on introducing Robin yet, jokes aside, Dick Grayson is another concept of the humanizing plot device.

I wouldn't be surprised to see in the opening bits of the film that not only is Bruce still mourning the loss of Rachel, but without that person keeping him grounded he's become violent and reckless. I suspect that the characters that Nolan plans on using will refocus Batman and in the end ultimately provide Bruce Wayne with a sense of balance, a literal Rising of his acceptance...both for him and for Gotham Cit.
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Old November 17 2010, 05:34 AM   #176
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Admiral_Young wrote: View Post
Batman needs a love interest to keep him anchored. As I stated a few pages ago the purpose of Rachel Dawes was to humanize and anchor Bruce Wayne, to give him a reason to think that maybe there was a chance that his mission could end and he could actually get to be happy like everyone else. "The Dark Knight" proved though that while this notion was well meaning simply isn't possible for someone as driven and committed to the course of action that Bruce is. The casting of female characters continues to provide that sense of humanism for Bruce and to create conflict and drama. Female characters are almost a necessity for a character like Batman in my opinion. Especially if you're not planning on introducing Robin yet, jokes aside, Dick Grayson is another concept of the humanizing plot device.

I wouldn't be surprised to see in the opening bits of the film that not only is Bruce still mourning the loss of Rachel, but without that person keeping him grounded he's become violent and reckless. I suspect that the characters that Nolan plans on using will refocus Batman and in the end ultimately provide Bruce Wayne with a sense of balance, a literal Rising of his acceptance...both for him and for Gotham City.
Wow, that's an awesome post.
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Old November 17 2010, 05:35 AM   #177
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

the G-man wrote: View Post
ELF has engaged in arson and bombings. The fact they haven't actually killed anyone, even accidentally, is simply a matter of luck.
Cribbing from a plagiarist? Gotta love the irony.

Terrorism is designed to instill terror through acts of violence, attempted or successful--to instill a climate of fear. You can't be terrorized by a group which explicitely rejects violence against living entities, unless you're completely phobic. E.L.F. are vandals. To call them terrorists is to define terrorism so broadly as to injure the use of the term. There's a whole litany of organizations that ought to be considered terrorists before E.L.F. ever is.

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Old November 17 2010, 05:44 AM   #178
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

@exodus....thanks, just trying to keep things on topic and provide some insight.
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Old November 17 2010, 05:49 AM   #179
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

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@exodus....thanks, just trying to keep things on topic and provide some insight.
For what it's worth, I think you did just that.
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Old November 17 2010, 07:09 AM   #180
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Re: The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

I remember that when "Batman Begins" came out, I read a review saying that Rachel was the latest in a series of 'useless bat-girlfriends' who wasn't really necessary and was obviously put into the movie just so it wouldn't just be a sausage fest. I thought that was a bit of an exaggeration, but a fair point being made.

Nolan also confirmed that pretty much the only studio interference in "Batman Begins" was insisting that it be PG-13 and 'romantic'. I think this goes a long way towards explaining why Rachel felt so shoehorned into that movie. It didn't help that Katie Holmes was also the weakest acting link in the cast.

I do think a lot of the love interests in Batman movies have been forced and that "Batman Begins" would have been just as good or better without a female character. Re-watching the movie, I realized that Rachel didn't do much for most of the movie besides recite thinly veiled exposition dialog, and a friend of mine who watched it with me suggested that maybe one of the reasons Katie Holmes didn't return for the sequel was because this is why she didn't find it a very enjoyable role to play. Rachel had a little more to do in "The Dark Knight", but in the end, she still felt like more of a plot device than a necessary character.

I don't think the fact that so many women in Batman movies have been unnecessary means a woman in a Batman movie will never fit, though. To me Michelle Pfieffer/Catwoman was the best character out of the first two Batman movies, and I can imagine the women in the next Batman movie being a lot more interesting and organic to the story than Rachel, especially if one takes centre stage as a villain.
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