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Old November 8 2010, 06:48 PM   #61
Christopher
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

Folks, let's keep in mind what the subject matter of this thread and this forum are supposed to be. If you want to debate the specifics of the 2009 Star Trek film for the fifty gazillionth time, there is an appropriate forum for that elsewhere on the TrekBBS. This is the Literature forum and the topic of the thread is about the Romulans' role in the Lit-verse in the wake of Destiny.
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Old November 8 2010, 07:07 PM   #62
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
In star trek XI, Nero said he is the last of the romulan empire.

Spock said there are only 10000 vulcans left, that the vulcans are an endangered species.
At the end of the movie, it is, again, established that the vulcans are experiencing a crisis due to severely limited numbers - which is not consistent with hundreds of millions of vulcans living in off-world colonies.
And not consistent with the existence of billions of Romulans, Vulcans but for political naming conventions.

Reducing the Vulcan population of Vulcan cultural background from (say) 5 billion down to 50 million--a drop of 99%--would certainly threaten the survival of this culturally distinctive group.
Saying vulcans are romulans is much like saying that cold war russians were americans. With the difference that the cultural gap between these two nations was FAR FAR smaller.

Also - countries generally have a population far below 50 million people. That does NOT mean their survival is biologically endangered in any way, shape or form.

Besides, the people who wrote the movie said that the ten thousand figure relates to the people living on Vulcan itself. What more needs to be said?
Christopher wrote: View Post
[...] As I said, screenwriters tend to overlook the idea of offworld colonization. I suspect that the line was written with the unexamined assumption that Vulcans lived only on Vulcan, and when that fan raised the question to Orci in the Q&A, Orci realized that had been an oversight and offered a correction. So I'd expect that, if the issue came up in a later movie and if there were room to mention it, Orci and Kurtzman would be more likely to clarify that there are surviving Vulcan colonies.
AKA, as I already said "When they wrote the script, the scenarists' intent was to have the vulcans be an endangered species (10000 of them) and the 24th century romulans be all but extinct.

Of course, that does not really make sense when one considers the capabilities of an interstellar trek civilization.
Which is why many interpret the movie as "Nero was emotionally compromised and his words are not to be taken at face value" or "Spock was emotionally compromised and his words are not to be taken at face value".

Of course, this hand-waving interpretation does not really fit the events as presented in star trek XI, is forced - and it shows.
Nevertheless, it may be preferable."

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
About the rihannsu novels - it is pretty much the same situation.
The rihannsu novels - most of the events depicted therein - do not fit the main trek lit continuity, they were not intended to fit this main lit continuity
Agreed. That's why I wrote that I consider the Rihannsu novels as relevant to the novelverse, canonical except where they can't be.

There's numerous references made to the Romulans as Rihannsu in the novelverse. [...] Most of the new novels even explicitly credit the Rihannsu novels in their neat bibliographies.
The current lit continuity borrowed some snippets - names and a few concepts - from the rihannsu books.
It did NOT - at this point, it can't (I already gave relevant examples) - borrow the books' plot and most of the concepts presented therein.

Generalising from borrowing those snippets to ~'everything from the rihannsu books that's not already contradicted is part of the lit continuity' is a poor argument, based on a logical fallacy.

The romulans being friendly with the federation?
In star trek V, it was obvious nobody cared about the "planet of galactic peace".
In star trek VI, the romulans were a part of the plot to kill the federation president.
This so-called 'friendship' was pretty superficial - more like a frozen war.
If we're assuming implacable hostility, there's still the question of why Nanclus was president at this briefing.[...]
Why would the Romulan ambassador be present? Assuming that the Federation isn't run by stupid people, the simplest explanation seems to be that the Romulans are close enough to the Federation to be trusted with highly sensitive information as it's being briefed to the Federation president.
Do you actually doubt I could come with 2-3 different explanations for this (for example, the federation was trying to obtain romulan neutrality, the relevant information given at the meeting being general enough that it was common knowledge)?
Or that you could find counterarguments that I could, again, refute, generating a lenghty discussion that will never go anywhere, being, essentially, a waste of time?

Rihannsu 5 - the book that ends with the romulans and the federation being friends - was written AFTER star trek VI was filmed.
Meaning there is no chance star trek VI was meant to incorporate ideas from the rihannsu 5 (see romulan-federation friendship).

In star trek V and VI, the scenarists imagined half-hearted attempts at rapprochement that are orders of magnitude below what rihannsu 5's friendship would imply.
You are trying to connect the two in a way that was not intended by their creators; the result is, inevitably, a forced interpretation.

Last edited by ProtoAvatar; November 8 2010 at 07:21 PM.
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Old November 8 2010, 09:07 PM   #63
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

kkozoriz1 wrote: View Post
The movie also has Uhura taking over communications because the senior communications officer can't tell the difference between Vulcan and Romulan.

So there's three dialects of a language very close to Romulan. It would be like an American not being able to understand someone from the UK and being replaced by someone who can understand English with Scottish, Irish and Australian accents.
Back in Desert Storm I was with a unit where the radio operator needed another Soldier with him to translate. No biggie right? What he was having trouble with was comms between a Field Artillery unit from Arkansas and the British 1st Armoured Division. Yes, both speak English, but the accents were so thick that it was, at times, very hard to understand.
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Old November 8 2010, 09:44 PM   #64
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Saying vulcans are romulans is much like saying that cold war russians were americans. With the difference that the cultural gap between these two nations was FAR FAR smaller.
Sure, but we're not talking about cultures, but about species. Vulcans and Romulans belong to different cultural groups but not to different species, at least if we're not using the most common definition of a species as "a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring." Vulcans and Romulans are interfertile, as one would expect given that they've the same homeworld and were separated only two millennia ago, hence they belong to the same species.

Also - countries generally have a population far below 50 million people. That does NOT mean their survival is biologically endangered in any way, shape or form.
Earth has almost seven billion people. I kill all but seventy million of these. This doesn't threaten the survival of the human species.

AKA, as I already said "When they wrote the script, the scenarists' intent was to have the vulcans be an endangered species (10000 of them) and the 24th century romulans be all but extinct.
Which is irrelevant since the writers have now clarified that line, stating explicitly that refers to the total number of Vulcans saved on-planet.

Of course, that does not really make sense when one
Generalising from borrowing those snippets to ~'everything from the rihannsu books that's not already contradicted is part of the lit continuity' is a poor argument, based on a logical fallacy.
It would be a logical fallacy if I said that the Rihannsu books were incorporated entirely. I didn't. Instead, I said that where possible authors were taking major cultural, historical, and other facts re: Romulan civilization as according to Duane's novels and explicitly incorporating them into the novelverse. Romulan history, culture, and language as presented in the novelverse is basically as Duane wrote them.

QUOTE]Do you actually doubt I could come with 2-3 different explanations for this (for example, the federation was trying to obtain romulan neutrality, the relevant information given at the meeting being general enough that it was common knowledge)?
Sharing highly specific plans with the Romulans seems rather risky.

Or that you could find counterarguments that I could, again, refute, generating a lenghty discussion that will never go anywhere, being, essentially, a waste of time?
With respect, if you don't like having your arguments disproved with specific citations, you don't have to make them. I'm the person providing citations, including URLs. And you?
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Old November 8 2010, 09:53 PM   #65
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

Christopher wrote: View Post
Folks, let's keep in mind what the subject matter of this thread and this forum are supposed to be. If you want to debate the specifics of the 2009 Star Trek film for the fifty gazillionth time, there is an appropriate forum for that elsewhere on the TrekBBS. This is the Literature forum and the topic of the thread is about the Romulans' role in the Lit-verse in the wake of Destiny.
OK, sorry.

So. The two Romulan states may have gotten off relatively lightly compared to the Federation because the Federation core worlds were the main targets of the Borg invaders, and plausibly even relatively lightly compared to the Klingons because of the use of the numerous metaweapons that the Romulans have built and deployed whenever possible. Subspace weapons and thalaron projectors would be likely. The Romulans have probably taken note of what happened with the Tomed, and suicide runs into Borg cubes or nearby objects at warp speed could take care. The Phoenix class of Romulan starships described in the game Star Trek Armada--doomsday weapons to be used only if Romulan civilization was threatened, ships that would rip the fabric of space-time--would be used, et cetera.

If a relatively successful Romulan defense against the Borg in 2381 was based substantially on the use of metaweapons, what would the reaction of Romulan neighbours be? Presumably many of these weapons would be barred by interstellar treaty. How would the Federation and the Klingons react to the fact that the Romulans have been stockpiling these weapons anyway?

The relative impact of the Borg invasion on the two Romulan states is also worth noting. Judging by the indications we've gotten about the borders of the RSE and the IRS, a case could be made that the RSE was substantially more exposed to the Borg than the IRS. If--my guess from the maps provided earlier--a quarter of RSE space was wrecked, versus a smaller fraction of IRS space, the RSE economy would be faring even worse than before. Might RSE:North Korea::IRS:South Korea?

The division of the RSE into two successor states might also reflect long-standing cultural divisions within a Romulan civilization that's relatively diverse even if we're talking about the Romulans of Vulcan background, never mind the various subject species. The RSE Romulans might be more conservative and xenophobic, as a rule, than the IRS Romulans.

Thoughts?
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Old November 8 2010, 11:01 PM   #66
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Sure, but we're not talking about cultures, but about species. Vulcans and Romulans belong to different cultural groups but not to different species, at least if we're not using the most common definition of a species as "a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring." Vulcans and Romulans are interfertile, as one would expect given that they've the same homeworld and were separated only two millennia ago, hence they belong to the same species.
Well, by that definition, pretty much all Trek humanoids are the same species.

Still, even by Trek definitions, you're right that Vulcans and Romulans are the same species. The populations only diverged 2000 years ago, and even by Trek's wonky genetics, that's not enough time for speciation.
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Old November 8 2010, 11:15 PM   #67
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Earth has almost seven billion people. I kill all but seventy million of these. This doesn't threaten the survival of the human species.
Yes, rfmcdpei, this does not threaten the survival of the human species. 70 million people is MORE THAN ENOUGH for the species not to be biologically endangered.

If these 70 million people belong to only one culture, though, all other cultures will be extinct. But this one culture is under no threat of disappearing.

Apropos this, since, apparently, I have to spell this out: When I say vulcans, I mean vulcan species&culture as in NOT romulan species&culture. When Spock, in star trek XI says 'vulcans' he means vulcan species&culture aka the same thing.

In star trek, the vulcans and the romulans are treated as two separate entities, despite their kinship; when trek characters use the term 'vulcan species' they include in this concept only the vulcans and their culture; similarly 'romulan species' is referring only to romulans.

Which is irrelevant since the writers have now clarified that line, stating explicitly that refers to the total number of Vulcans saved on-planet.
Hardly irrelevant. Like any retcon, this is to some extent forced, it doesn't quite fit with the movie.

Generalising from borrowing those snippets to ~'everything from the rihannsu books that's not already contradicted is part of the lit continuity' is a poor argument, based on a logical fallacy.
It would be a logical fallacy if I said that the Rihannsu books were incorporated entirely. I didn't.
rfmcdpei, generalising from a few snippets (and I mean snippets - they don't even cover 1% of the concepts introduced in the rihannsu books) to everything that isn't contradicted is an obvious generalisation (a rather large one, too) aka a logical fallacy.
Do I really need to post a link detailing how generalisation is a logical fallacy?

Or that you could find counterarguments that I could, again, refute, generating a lenghty discussion that will never go anywhere, being, essentially, a waste of time?
With respect, if you don't like having your arguments disproved with specific citations, you don't have to make them. I'm the person providing citations, including URLs. And you?
Actually, it is - I don't like having my time quite so pointlessly wasted.

About your 'citations' - they are quite useless, as well; at least the ones addressed to me are:
For example, a repeat of your generalisation about the rihannsu books is really not needed.
Or you trying to be pedantic about species/culture, when it's obvious there is no confusion about the concepts.

Last edited by ProtoAvatar; November 8 2010 at 11:28 PM.
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Old November 9 2010, 08:21 AM   #68
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

kkozoriz1 wrote: View Post
Nero wasn't going anywhere. The Narada was falling apart, pieces were falling off. It was on both sides of the wormhole, not going in one side and coming out the other in some other reality like we saw earlier.
We don't know that. We do not know that at all. The Narada was at least a century more advanced than anything the Federation had -- if not more, if it was made from Borg technology -- and if it survived one trip into a new timeline, there's no reason to think it can't do so again.

And do recall that Nero declared his intention to continue combat with the Enterprise if they attempted to rescue him.

This is akin to capturing an enemy solder who cannot run away, who has no weapons left and shooting him in the back.
No, it's akin to shooting an enemy who's about to walk into a village with an AK-47 and shoot someone.

It's not surprising the support Spock has for his actions. How many war crimes have gone unpunished in Iraq and Afghanistan? If you take on the same actions of your foes, you become them.
Dude, killing your enemy in a firefight he started when he has not yet surrendered, has not been captured, and represents an immediate threat to innocent life, is not a war crime.
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Old November 9 2010, 02:41 PM   #69
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

Again, if you guys want to debate stuff about the movie that has nothing to do with the topic of Trek Lit Romulans post-Destiny, why are you doing it in this thread?
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Old November 10 2010, 01:40 PM   #70
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

Apropos this, since, apparently, I have to spell this out: When I say vulcans, I mean vulcan species&culture as in NOT romulan species&culture. When Spock, in star trek XI says 'vulcans' he means vulcan species&culture aka the same thing.
Means but doesn't say. Maybe. Shall this be inferred where other thngs aren't supposed to be?

Anyhow. I'd like to apologize for my role in taking this conversation downhill. I do think you are dewmonstrably wroong, but I wish I had the basic smarts not to take the conversation in the direct that I did. I'm sorry.
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Old November 10 2010, 03:00 PM   #71
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

One of the persistent problems with ST's approach to aliens is that it usually treats "species," "culture," and "nation" as interchangeable terms. And that simplistic thinking leads to errors like defining Vulcans as a "species" instead of a cultural and ethnic subdivision of the greater Vulcanoid species that includes Vulcans and Romulans.

And really, going around in circles arguing about the meaning of one sentence in a movie can't be the most meaningful way of exploring that subject. Surely there are larger and more interesting questions to be examined within the context of the thread topic.
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Old November 10 2010, 07:51 PM   #72
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

Christopher wrote: View Post
And really, going around in circles arguing about the meaning of one sentence in a movie can't be the most meaningful way of exploring that subject. Surely there are larger and more interesting questions to be examined within the context of the thread topic.
OK, makes sense.

Might I ask what you think of the topic nominally at hand?
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Old November 12 2010, 09:43 PM   #73
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

Christopher wrote: View Post
Again, if you guys want to debate stuff about the movie that has nothing to do with the topic of Trek Lit Romulans post-Destiny, why are you doing it in this thread?
Because it helps with our insommnia.
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Old November 12 2010, 10:02 PM   #74
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
SicOne wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
One area of technology where the Romulans are quite good with are metaweapons, doomsday weapons capable of inflicting massive damage and/or subverting other powers' weapons...after using the Sunseed technology, the Romulan Praetorate launched a weapon that would have made Sol hyperflare and destroy our solar system, and would have been happy to do the same to the Qo'Nos system; the Tomed incident saw an "accident" with a single singularity drive-equipped Romulan warship annihilate outposts scattered possibly across light-years...

There's evidence to suggest that the Romulans did well against the Borg. The Verithrax, a single ship, was able to destroy the Borg vessel attacking Ardana.
In what books or stories did these events occur?

And do we know if the Verithrax survived the engagement with the Borg?
The Sunseed hyperflare business is in the Rihannsu novels. Of course, those don't really fit into the modern continuity, but plenty of people take a "broad strokes" approach and incorporate its basic story into their unofficial Trek timeline, probably because the novels are considered very good. I haven't made my mind up yet, but rfmcdpei obviously "counts" them.

The Tomed disaster was described in "Serpents Among the Ruins"

And the Verithrax was destroyed. We don't know exactly what it did, but it destroyed itself taking out the cube at Ardana.
Thanks for the tip for "Serpents", which I have but have not read yet.

Not to turn this into a discussion that should be moved over to Trek Tech, but since it's been stated in canon that Romulan ships are powered by an artificial quantum singularity (I am operating under the assumption here that somehow they have "harnessed" an artificial black hole), could it simply be that the Verithrax just got close enough to the cube to ram it and that the cube was drawn into the mini-black hole?

I'm thinking Occam's Razor might be at work here...we're speculating about meta-super-ultra-Earth-shattering-kaboom!-weapons, when this is a more simple, perhaps more realistic, and more elegant solution that does not involve the other Quadrant powers feeling the need to invade Romulus to keep these metaweapons out of the hands of the Empire.
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Old November 12 2010, 10:19 PM   #75
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Re: Some speculation about the Romulans and the Borg invasion

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Not to turn this into a discussion that should be moved over to Trek Tech, but since it's been stated in canon that Romulan ships are powered by an artificial quantum singularity (I am operating under the assumption here that somehow they have "harnessed" an artificial black hole), could it simply be that the Verithrax just got close enough to the cube to ram it and that the cube was drawn into the mini-black hole?
No way. A quantum singularity is microscopic, extremely low in mass. It can only "draw in" things that get extremely close to it. You could probably send a quantum-singularity "bullet" clear through a Borg cube, but the damage would be little worse than a micrometeoroid would inflict, just a bunch of small puncture holes. And that's assuming a comparatively large quantum singularity, large enough to be useful as a power source (assuming the power is generated by dumping stuff in and harnessing the resultant x-ray emissions -- which calls for a singularity large enough to draw in more than the occasional subatomic particle that gets too close).
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