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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: How would you rate Zero Sum Game?
Outstanding 38 22.22%
Above Average 78 45.61%
Average 45 26.32%
Below Average 8 4.68%
Poor 2 1.17%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 9 2010, 10:57 PM   #181
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Idoliside wrote: View Post
ares93 wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post

He shot some unarmed civilians in the back of the head in this story - as the ends justified the means - what is it that Section 31 does that is different from this?
did he? i don't believe i have reached that part yet then. it that is indeed the case, it changes a lot of things...

he seemed truly chocked when Sarina kills that technician or guard or whatever. does he really change that much over the course of the book?
See I found his reaction to that killing to be the most unbelievable. How many people has he seen killed infront of him during the Klingon/Dominion wars. He's always had a strong ethic but he knew the stakes of the mission and what it would take to complete.
IIRC, his concern was that the killing was unnecessary (it was also unexpected, especially from Sarina). He justified his later slaughter to himself as necessary before he began killing.
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Old November 9 2010, 11:43 PM   #182
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Bashir shooting and murdering unarmed beings is wholly out of character.

Putting his weapon on the 'stun' setting was too much trouble for him? He had to expend too much effort? Also, he killed during his endgame, so the victims waking up and alerting the authorities was not a concern.
His actions robbed his victims of the chace of being saved/saving themselves - for no reason at all.

Bashir's murders have a gratuitous quality to them that completely contradicts his character as established in the series.
His actions are at exactly the same level as Section 31's: making 'tough decisions' just because one can, not because these decisions are necessary. By his killing, Bashir completely sabotaged his position towards S31, as established during DS9's run.

Last edited by ProtoAvatar; November 10 2010 at 12:01 AM.
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Old November 10 2010, 12:08 AM   #183
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Or perhaps the writers are showing just how people get led down such a treacherous road to begin with? Did you consider that?

The road to hell, after all, is paved with very good intentions.
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Old November 10 2010, 12:17 AM   #184
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post

I believe that Dr. Bashir never considers "pulling the plug" on his patient. Rather, he counsels his patient's nearest living relative that, because no hope of recovery exists, she should consider "letting him go." A subtle distinction, I agree, but an important one.
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Old November 10 2010, 12:38 AM   #185
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^(frowning) I...don't fully understand....

So he wasn't counseling her to...?
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Old November 10 2010, 12:39 AM   #186
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Bashir shooting and murdering unarmed beings is wholly out of character.

Putting his weapon on the 'stun' setting was too much trouble for him? He had to expend too much effort? Also, he killed during his endgame, so the victims waking up and alerting the authorities was not a concern.
His actions robbed his victims of the chace of being saved/saving themselves - for no reason at all.

Bashir's murders have a gratuitous quality to them that completely contradicts his character as established in the series.
His actions are at exactly the same level as Section 31's: making 'tough decisions' just because one can, not because these decisions are necessary. By his killing, Bashir completely sabotaged his position towards S31, as established during DS9's run.
Do we even know if the stun setting would have worked?
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Old November 10 2010, 12:41 AM   #187
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I'm surprised Vaughn wasn't just killed off, unless there's some specific reason for keeping him around.
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Old November 10 2010, 02:05 AM   #188
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post

I...don't fully understand....

So he wasn't counseling her to...?
There's a difference between doing something yourself and recommending that somebody else do it.
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Old November 10 2010, 03:07 AM   #189
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I also read it much more as concern for Prynn, as Julian seemed to feel that Vaughn was well beyond the need for it.
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Old November 10 2010, 06:24 AM   #190
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Well, regardless--if we are going by the original Oath, it clearly states:

I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor give any such counsel...
Hippocrates, at least, seemed to make little to no distinction between the two concepts.

But even if we're not...I fail to see what the difference is really supposed to be. You're not allowed to take a life--so you advice someone else to do it for you?
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Old November 10 2010, 08:24 AM   #191
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^ Rush, I dunno how it is in ST. But in RL, when the family decide to pull the plug, its actually the doctor who does it. So we can assume the it was julian who would have done it either way.

I just read the part you spoke of, JoeZhang. And to be frank i have no idea how to react. The Breen seemed more remorseful than Julian. First thing in this book i can say i hated. That was so not Julian.
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Old November 10 2010, 10:19 AM   #192
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Bashir shooting and murdering unarmed beings is wholly out of character.

Putting his weapon on the 'stun' setting was too much trouble for him? He had to expend too much effort? Also, he killed during his endgame, so the victims waking up and alerting the authorities was not a concern.
His actions robbed his victims of the chace of being saved/saving themselves - for no reason at all.

Bashir's murders have a gratuitous quality to them that completely contradicts his character as established in the series.
His actions are at exactly the same level as Section 31's: making 'tough decisions' just because one can, not because these decisions are necessary. By his killing, Bashir completely sabotaged his position towards S31, as established during DS9's run.
Do we even know if the stun setting would have worked?
Actually, we do know this.

In this very book it is established that a breen weapon on stun will incapacitate breen soldiers in their suit.
I'm referring to how Sarina incapacitated the guards from the torture chamber by using the stun setting on a breen weapon.

Ironically, Sarina, the S31 agent, acted far more humanely than Bashir, the person who, supposedly, is fully opposed to the ruthless ways of this S31.

elaithin wrote: View Post
Or perhaps the writers are showing just how people get led down such a treacherous road to begin with? Did you consider that?

The road to hell, after all, is paved with very good intentions.
Bashir went from ~'amoral methods must not be used under any circumstances whatsoever' to gratuitously killing unarmed scientists.

He went from an extreme to the other with little or no transition, for no believable reason.

This "showing just how people get led down such a treacherous road to begin with" was poorly done.
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Old November 10 2010, 02:31 PM   #193
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Well frankly, considering how, in "Extreme Measures", he was perfectly willing to shoot Sloan unarmed--capture him without a warrrant--restrain him to a table--and use Romulan Mind Probes (read: Enhanced Interrogation Techniques) on him...somehow, I'd say him becoming more and more like one of Those People isn't quite that far fetched.
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Old November 10 2010, 02:43 PM   #194
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^ still, i never thought he'd go this far.

On a sidenote. Mr. Mack! You and your cryptic endings! Why? WHY!? WHAAAAAAY!?!

Now i'm gonna go nuts until the next book is out. Whenever that will be...
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Old November 10 2010, 06:29 PM   #195
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^I know.

And again...the way he writes Ezri, and makes her so cryptic--we see Julian's reaction to their chew-out scene...but when we cut to Ezri, it's totally external, business-as-usual--we don't have any clue as to how she reacted to the whole thing.
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