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View Poll Results: How would you rate Zero Sum Game?
Outstanding 38 22.22%
Above Average 78 45.61%
Average 45 26.32%
Below Average 8 4.68%
Poor 2 1.17%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 8 2010, 10:15 PM   #166
Rush Limborg
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Enterprise1981 wrote: View Post
For the record, while I'm free from having to hear the missus go on and on about the romance of the week on Grey's Anatomy/Private Practice, I am not exactly rooting for happily ever after.
I wouldn't dismiss her decision as "amoral". I would say--



And I wouldn't say she wasn't attracted to him at all. Just...that she's not sincere in that "I'll go where you go" devotion.

Mack still does well to stick to Bashir's character traits. He still sees the sweet innocent girl of seven years earlier. He'd expect some of the actions she's taken throughout the mission from Sisko, Kira, Worf, or Garak.
Ah...perhaps. But I'm very concerned about how quickly he came to the conclusion that Sarina was The Only One For Him.

To say nothing about how defensive he got in that scene with Ezri (a scene which, to be frank, spirald out of control FAR too quickly. I couldn't read it without thinking, "Gee, that was forced...").
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Old November 8 2010, 10:30 PM   #167
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^ indeed. I received my book today an i've already read 116 pages. and aside from the spoilers i read before, Sarina just come off as a bit shady this time. even in the prologue i knew something was up by the way she said "i took a few percussions."
that raised a huge red flag for me.

i also read the ezri/julian scene a few hours ago and although, i too, felt it to be a bit rushed. i think it was very much in character. also the way Mr. Mack pictures Bashir is in my opinion incredibly accurate. part of the reason i love his books so much. he must do a helluva lot of research in order to be this true to the characters.
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Old November 9 2010, 02:02 AM   #168
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

In the real world, Bashir would be just as likely to decide Sarina was right to join Section 31 and follow in her footsteps, thereby avoiding losing her.
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Old November 9 2010, 08:21 AM   #169
ares93
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

justcorbly wrote: View Post
In the real world, Bashir would be just as likely to decide Sarina was right to join Section 31 and follow in her footsteps, thereby avoiding losing her.
maybe he'd get the girl, but he'd also lose himself.
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Old November 9 2010, 08:43 AM   #170
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

ares93 wrote: View Post

maybe he'd get the girl, but he'd also lose himself.
Ah, that same old story: boy meets girl, boy loses self....
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Old November 9 2010, 09:29 AM   #171
ares93
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

David R. George III wrote: View Post
ares93 wrote: View Post

maybe he'd get the girl, but he'd also lose himself.
Ah, that same old story: boy meets girl, boy loses self....
oh, c'mon! its not just the classical stereotype. Section 31 goes against everything he stands for. Not just personally, but as an MD as well. i've made my feelings clear about people who break the hippocratic oath in the past, but i just dont see bashir being one of them.
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Old November 9 2010, 10:02 AM   #172
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I really enjoyed it, a different pace compared to the Destiny trilogy.

I am glad there is a lot of tension between the powers being built up, I am looking forward to the next 3 books!

What are the plans for post typhon pact 24th century novels?
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Old November 9 2010, 02:37 PM   #173
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

ares93 wrote: View Post
David R. George III wrote: View Post
ares93 wrote: View Post

maybe he'd get the girl, but he'd also lose himself.
Ah, that same old story: boy meets girl, boy loses self....
oh, c'mon! its not just the classical stereotype. Section 31 goes against everything he stands for. Not just personally, but as an MD as well. i've made my feelings clear about people who break the hippocratic oath in the past, but i just dont see bashir being one of them.
He shot some unarmed civilians in the back of the head in this story - as the ends justified the means - what is it that Section 31 does that is different from this?
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Old November 9 2010, 02:39 PM   #174
ares93
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
ares93 wrote: View Post
David R. George III wrote: View Post
Ah, that same old story: boy meets girl, boy loses self....
oh, c'mon! its not just the classical stereotype. Section 31 goes against everything he stands for. Not just personally, but as an MD as well. i've made my feelings clear about people who break the hippocratic oath in the past, but i just dont see bashir being one of them.
He shot some unarmed civilians in the back of the head in this story - as the ends justified the means - what is it that Section 31 does that is different from this?
did he? i don't believe i have reached that part yet then. it that is indeed the case, it changes a lot of things...

he seemed truly chocked when Sarina kills that technician or guard or whatever. does he really change that much over the course of the book?
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Old November 9 2010, 05:28 PM   #175
Idoliside
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

ares93 wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
ares93 wrote: View Post

oh, c'mon! its not just the classical stereotype. Section 31 goes against everything he stands for. Not just personally, but as an MD as well. i've made my feelings clear about people who break the hippocratic oath in the past, but i just dont see bashir being one of them.
He shot some unarmed civilians in the back of the head in this story - as the ends justified the means - what is it that Section 31 does that is different from this?
did he? i don't believe i have reached that part yet then. it that is indeed the case, it changes a lot of things...

he seemed truly chocked when Sarina kills that technician or guard or whatever. does he really change that much over the course of the book?
See I found his reaction to that killing to be the most unbelievable. How many people has he seen killed infront of him during the Klingon/Dominion wars. He's always had a strong ethic but he knew the stakes of the mission and what it would take to complete.
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Old November 9 2010, 07:42 PM   #176
ares93
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Idoliside wrote: View Post
See I found his reaction to that killing to be the most unbelievable. How many people has he seen killed infront of him during the Klingon/Dominion wars. He's always had a strong ethic but he knew the stakes of the mission and what it would take to complete.
theres a difference between watching a random guy kill someone in the heat of the battle and watching your partner kill someone during a covert mission.

one thing is certain, clandestine operations isnt his specialty.
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Old November 9 2010, 09:02 PM   #177
Enterprise1981
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^ Nevertheless, some of his dialogue made me want to strangle him.

But Rush made an interesting point about Sarina and her affiliation with Section 31. With that in mind, would she be a willing a participant in the following:

1. The creation of a phasing cloak in direct violation of a treaty that kept the peace for sixty years? Yes, although that now seems moot with the Romulans having perfected the technology themselves.

2. The forced relocation of the Baku? No.

3. The creation of a virus designed to exterminate the Founders? Absolutely not.
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Old November 9 2010, 09:32 PM   #178
Rush Limborg
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

ares93 wrote: View Post
David R. George III wrote: View Post
ares93 wrote: View Post

maybe he'd get the girl, but he'd also lose himself.
Ah, that same old story: boy meets girl, boy loses self....
oh, c'mon! its not just the classical stereotype. Section 31 goes against everything he stands for. Not just personally, but as an MD as well. i've made my feelings clear about people who break the hippocratic oath in the past, but i just dont see bashir being one of them.
Well...the original Oath forbids euthanasia (and abortion, while we're at it--but that's a controversy for another time)...and it's noted in the book that--



Of course...it's possible that in the 24th century, like today, the original Oath has been superseded by a more "modern" paraphrase--which, frankly, is not truly a "Hippocratic Oath" at all, since it's been completely rewritten. *sigh*
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Old November 9 2010, 09:44 PM   #179
Rush Limborg
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

ares93 wrote: View Post
Idoliside wrote: View Post
See I found his reaction to that killing to be the most unbelievable. How many people has he seen killed infront of him during the Klingon/Dominion wars. He's always had a strong ethic but he knew the stakes of the mission and what it would take to complete.
theres a difference between watching a random guy kill someone in the heat of the battle and watching your partner kill someone during a covert mission.

one thing is certain, clandestine operations isnt his specialty.
Well...over the years, we've seen him gradually develop a toughness and "edge". While Ezri certainly had a point that maybe he's in a bit over his head--still, one could easily say that about Sarina--even without the you-know-what element. She started out even more innocent, green, and naive than Julian--years after Julian's arc started.

Enterprise1981 wrote: View Post
^ Nevertheless, some of his dialogue made me want to strangle him.
Absolutely--but my biggest beef was, again, the paragraph where he mentally swears up and down that Sarina is his One True Love, because Only She could truly understand him, because of her own genetic enhancements.

But Rush made an interesting point about Sarina and her affiliation with Section 31. With that in mind, would she be a willing a participant in the following:

1. The creation of a phasing cloak in direct violation of a treaty that kept the peace for sixty years? Yes, although that now seems moot with the Romulans having perfected the technology themselves.
Frankly, the Treaty of Algeron was stupidly one-sided, from the beginning. What did the UFP get out of it? Oh, yes...the Romulans go isolationist temporarily, while they go perfect and enhance all their technology, and bide their time.

2. The forced relocation of the Baku? No.
Interesting note...we only have Vaughn's belief that 31 was behind it. It's worth noting that the good then-Commander didn't even address that Dougherty was acting on orders from the COUNCIL--which Riker confirmed with his "top-level review" line.

Vaughn's line that "those of us in the know know better", or words to that effect, just made me go, "Oh, really?"

My guess is that in his own obsession with taking The Bureau down...he made a similar stretch of the imagination as Julian, who claimed that 31 was responsible for the New Bejing Massacre--just because he saw a photo of Agent Cole on Dr. Lockeman's desk. (Note that Cole had seemed genuinely unsure as to whether the Bureau had even known about the planned attack.)

But in the immortal words of the Dean Of Denegration, Dennis Miller: "'Course, that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

3. The creation of a virus designed to exterminate the Founders? Absolutely not.
I'd be more inclined to agree with that. Either she'd not go along with that...or she'd go through a LOT of denial.
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Old November 9 2010, 09:51 PM   #180
ares93
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Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post

Well...the original Oath forbids euthanasia (and abortion, while we're at it--but that's a controversy for another time)...and it's noted in the book that--



Of course...it's possible that in the 24th century, like today, the original Oath has been superseded by a more "modern" paraphrase--which, frankly, is not truly a "Hippocratic Oath" at all, since it's been completely rewritten. *sigh*
indeed. you have a very good point there. guess i'm stuck in 2010. what i really cant understand is why i feel so strongly about the hippocratic oath. only doctors take it, not EMT's (EMS).

for a moment there when i read what he had done, i was afraid that he had gone too far. but if he at least tried to redeem himself, i think there is still hope for him. as my grandfather used to say when he spoke of 1956. "In wartime, good men do things they could not have even imagined during peace." (rough translation...) I never knew the story behind that statement. but it remains true until this day.
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