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Old October 4 2010, 01:30 AM   #166
Gul Re'jal
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Re: Star Trek: Shaping a Cardassian

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
I think the question with Spock would be, who invited him? If a group of underground Romulans invited him because that was what they wanted, then I have no problem with that. People can desire to change their cultures of their own will. Even though I don't like Vulcan culture all that much, if it was their idea rather than his I wouldn't mind, and may the best idea (his or theirs) win. If it's him forcing his ways upon people, then I don't approve. Honestly, I'm not sure which way it was in that episode...it's been too many years.
I don't remember either, so can say for sure. I think he was invited, but still, it was a small group of Romulans. No all Romulans wanted to be "converter" and Spock's approach seemed to be: "you'll be better". So those, who wouldn't choose to follow, would be considered worse and looked down upon?
Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
I guess it all comes down to the question of "what makes a Cardassian." I think you and I may answer that question a bit differently...I tend to write with the premise that when Akleen's revolution happened they lost something that was a legitimate part of them--that there is more to them than outsiders, or even many of their own people realize. Mine definitely aren't the Federation and never will be, whatever universe you put them in, but I also don't accept the military/Obsidian Order regime as the true soul of their people either.
I think they need a strong leadership, which would be an answer - and reaction - to their hierarchy instincts. Not necessarily in the form of a military coup, but the end of DS9 and then A Stitch in Time made Cardassia something I didn't like and didn't see Cardassian. They destroyed what was unique about Cardassians.

I wanted to bring it back to a Cardassia style we knew and take it from there.
And to show that for some people the Central Command's rule wasn't necessarily a personification of evil. Some people functioned in this system and they didn't have to be total ba$%$rds. Brenok supported the coup, and he had served Cardassian governments faithfully, but is he a bad person? Whatever were his personal thoughts and opinions, he never became a dissident, so there was something there in the old system that worked for him.

There is a difference, though. It's not visible, but a lot happened during those 17 years. It will all be explained in the next story, which picks up shortly after this conference and will slowly explain what Cardassian is like now, in 2396.

I want to skip the process of reaching this point, because I think it would be boring. No story, a social/political study

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post

Still, what makes me say that she did not deserve this promotion is that she is BEING the Nadar or Dukat in this situation.
Ouch, that hurts.
Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
Maybe, IF she can be a leader with a conscience, IF she can actually use that power for good, she can come to deserve that rank more. But right now, I still think this is the promotion she didn't deserve, not the one to gul.
Would you believe that she has a team of civilian advisers, and she made it a point to have at least two of each non-Cardassian race, including humans from former Federation colonies?
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Old October 4 2010, 01:45 AM   #167
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Star Trek: Shaping a Cardassian

Gul Spook wrote: View Post
I don't remember either, so can say for sure. I think he was invited, but still, it was a small group of Romulans. No all Romulans wanted to be "converter" and Spock's approach seemed to be: "you'll be better". So those, who wouldn't choose to follow, would be considered worse and looked down upon?
That would be the real determinant of how I would think of it. If there were multiple cultures able to coexist within Romulan space, or if the Romulans decided over generations that they wanted something different and did it, I would be fine with it. Imposing it by any kind of coercion or arrogance I wouldn't support.

I wanted to bring it back to a Cardassia style we knew and take it from there.
And to show that for some people the Central Command's rule wasn't necessarily a personification of evil. Some people functioned in this system and they didn't have to be total ba$%$rds. Brenok supported the coup, and he had served Cardassian governments faithfully, but is he a bad person? Whatever were his personal thoughts and opinions, he never became a dissident, so there was something there in the old system that worked for him.
But the old system ruled by fear, not by legitimate power. So Brenok could easily have not become a dissident because of fear for his life (before they were killed) that of his family.

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
Still, what makes me say that she did not deserve this promotion is that she is BEING the Nadar or Dukat in this situation.
Ouch, that hurts.
Not intended in a personal manner, of course. It's the parallel in the actions of the three characters I'm referring to. Each deposed a group whose power was more legitimate than theirs, to become what they were. Dukat overthrew the Detapa Council, Nadar overthrew Corak, and Jarol overthrew Ghemor. Your Ghemor wasn't the best, but the system he represented would've offered an opportunity to deal with the problem in another way.

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
Maybe, IF she can be a leader with a conscience, IF she can actually use that power for good, she can come to deserve that rank more. But right now, I still think this is the promotion she didn't deserve, not the one to gul.
Would you believe that she has a team of civilian advisers, and she made it a point to have at least two of each non-Cardassian race, including humans from former Federation colonies?
That would be helpful. Of course, I think they could easily devolve into figureheads once Jarol herself, and the others, are gone. What prevents that?
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Old October 4 2010, 02:06 AM   #168
Gul Re'jal
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Re: Star Trek: Shaping a Cardassian

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
But the old system ruled by fear, not by legitimate power. So Brenok could easily have not become a dissident because of fear for his life (before they were killed) that of his family.
Did you get that impression? That Brenok was a scared man, who would follow any order our of fear? Did he join the military to pretend he was loyal so that he and his family would be safe in the system?

And they won't rule by fear.

I didn't think about it earlier, but in my country's history there was a coup, which brought dictatorship, but by no means a totalitarian rule of cruelty and fear.

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
Your Ghemor wasn't the best, but the system he represented would've offered an opportunity to deal with the problem in another way.
And they formed their political group/party to do just that. However things got our of hands.
I never said they were ideal They just saw that things don't go the right direction and believed they had a solution and knew how to fix it. If they were right or wrong...

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
Would you believe that she has a team of civilian advisers, and she made it a point to have at least two of each non-Cardassian race, including humans from former Federation colonies?
That would be helpful. Of course, I think they could easily devolve into figureheads once Jarol herself, and the others, are gone. What prevents that?
No one can assure that next ones would be better or as good (if current ones are good). What would prevent Ghemor's successor from changing Ghemor's reforms or twisting his style of ruling Cardassia? No one can give such guarantees.
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Old October 4 2010, 02:43 AM   #169
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Star Trek: Shaping a Cardassian

Gul Spook wrote: View Post
Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
But the old system ruled by fear, not by legitimate power. So Brenok could easily have not become a dissident because of fear for his life (before they were killed) that of his family.
Did you get that impression? That Brenok was a scared man, who would follow any order our of fear? Did he join the military to pretend he was loyal so that he and his family would be safe in the system?

And they won't rule by fear.

I didn't think about it earlier, but in my country's history there was a coup, which brought dictatorship, but by no means a totalitarian rule of cruelty and fear.
Oh, I definitely think he had to be afraid. But I don't think of fear the same way I think you are.

He certainly had to hide his true nature when he realized that aliens weren't inferiors. He knew that he would be executed for doing the right thing and saving those girls and women on the colony world. You bet he was scared then, and he would have to remain afraid of what would happen if the Obsidian Order ever discovered his secret, or anything else--even a small thing--that they didn't think was "Cardassian enough."

He wasn't a coward--he DID act. Fear doesn't make a person a coward, in my opinion...the name for a person who isn't afraid isn't "coward," it's "idiot." And a brave person is one who does what they have to do even though they are afraid. Brenok wasn't a coward or an idiot. But I do think he had to fear exposure for who and what he really was, and had to hide that lest it backfire on him or his family. Jarol helped protect him, so I think that gave him less reason to fear, over time.

But I do think that fear is a legitimate and rational response when you live in a place where you're threatened just for being a decent person.

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
Would you believe that she has a team of civilian advisers, and she made it a point to have at least two of each non-Cardassian race, including humans from former Federation colonies?
That would be helpful. Of course, I think they could easily devolve into figureheads once Jarol herself, and the others, are gone. What prevents that?
No one can assure that next ones would be better or as good (if current ones are good). What would prevent Ghemor's successor from changing Ghemor's reforms or twisting his style of ruling Cardassia? No one can give such guarantees.
I can certainly think of a country or two where that happened. Still, if set up correctly, a democratic system does offer protections against those sorts of things happening. What makes the difference between the countries where it went bad, and the countries where it has been successful is that you have to think of the rules as something outside of yourself, not something you can bend to your will. In other words, if you're the ruler, you are not at the top of the hierarchy; you answer to the law too.
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Old October 4 2010, 02:53 AM   #170
Gul Re'jal
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Re: Star Trek: Shaping a Cardassian

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
But I do think that fear is a legitimate and rational response when you live in a place where you're threatened just for being a decent person.
And that's why Brenok is going to look over Jarol
s shoulder to make sure she doesn't do the same thing to other decent people.

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
In other words, if you're the ruler, you are not at the top of the hierarchy; you answer to the law too.
Agreed.
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Old October 4 2010, 03:20 AM   #171
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Star Trek: Shaping a Cardassian

Gul Spook wrote: View Post
Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
But I do think that fear is a legitimate and rational response when you live in a place where you're threatened just for being a decent person.
And that's why Brenok is going to look over Jarol
s shoulder to make sure she doesn't do the same thing to other decent people.
I'll be interested to see how the two of them keep up now that one's on Cardassia Prime and one is on the Roumar. Especially since if they go back to something like the old ways, it will be very tempting not to want to even hear disagreement.
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