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Old September 11 2010, 07:39 AM   #226
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I tend to agree that MJ designed the action to be going on the nacelles. However, certain episodes (such as That Which Survives) clearly point to a single area of reaction between matter and antimatter.

In a MJ-nacelle style setup though, I believe that the ship could enter Warp even with the lithium crystal circuits all blown. However, since things like inertial dampeners and deflectors would be unpowered at this point, you really wouldn't want to!
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Old September 11 2010, 07:52 AM   #227
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Psion wrote: View Post
The only place I'd argue is that dilithium crystals were obviously needed to use warp drive, too. Your diagram would indicate that even without crystals, the ship could initiate warp, but I believe the original show directly contradicts that in several episodes.
Well, the nacelles are huge: plenty of room for a couple of big dilithium crystals in-line.

However, the show is unfortunately inconsistent in its use of dilithium. It had to be established as something essential to starships. It had to be really valuable, like an essential fuel, so as to justify the drama of some episodes.

So not only did we see engineering crew handling them in a way that implies they're used on the interior of the ship, but it's also implied that these same crystals control whether the engines run.

As I say, the show was a bit vague, probably because they had a show to do every week, and working out all the minutia was simply impossible. It was amazing that they were as consistent as they were.

Anyway, I'm not sure how you justify it, other than making the crystals integral to both shipboard and warp drive systems. That implies multiple locations for crystals: one in each nacelle; the energizer room; and I think sticking out of that "overhead cam device" doohickey in the middle of the engine room in "Elaan Of Troyus".

If crystals were sort of power regulators, it might make sense to have them several places. On the other hand, one starts to wonder just how rare they are if Starfleet can throw them all over the ship like that.

As I say, one of those things that just wasn't handled consistently. Dilithium crystals were unfortunately more a plot device than anything else. They'd need more whenever the plot demanded the ship be some level of crippled.

Maybe the crystals they always worried about were there in the engine room, in the doohickey in the floor? Perhaps they're some kind of "circuit breaker" or "spark plug", without which they can't make the engines start?

I know, I'm grasping. Blame Matt Jeffries et al for never envisioning we'd be arguing about it 50 years later.

One thing I do know: he meant that the real power of the ship and all its really dangerous components were in the nacelles. As you say, if you just look at the visuals, it's obvious: we're seeing the annihilation effect right through the nacelle caps!

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Old September 11 2010, 07:59 AM   #228
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
I tend to agree that MJ designed the action to be going on the nacelles. However, certain episodes (such as That Which Survives) clearly point to a single area of reaction between matter and antimatter.
Well, in all honesty, when I was first watching Star Trek in the 1970s, I always assumed that the scene in question might have been the only time we actually saw something going on up in the nacelles. Or that Scotty was at some access point near or adjacent to them. There was probably no real reason to assume that, but for purposes of justification, one could make the case.

Mytran wrote: View Post
In a MJ-nacelle style setup though, I believe that the ship could enter Warp even with the lithium crystal circuits all blown. However, since things like inertial dampeners and deflectors would be unpowered at this point, you really wouldn't want to!
Well, I should be clear that I'm not entirely certain what MJ would have thought of the "dilithium crystals == transformers" idea. As far as I know, that's just something that's been kicked around fandom over the years.

However, it seems to me that all the visuals about MJ's general intent are clear. His statements and records are pretty consistent. All the action was in the nacelles, and the Engine Room was for power distribution, ships systems support, and engine controls. T'weren't no antimatter in the crew-accessible parts of the ship.

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Old September 11 2010, 08:08 AM   #229
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Albertese - Thanks Actually I haven't completely given up on Model 1 and as a WIP there will be plenty of changes still coming up to flesh out the blocks I had put in as placeholders. Interestingly, when you start putting in the hallways and such into the TOS Enterprise, it starts to leave proportionally the same amount of engine space as the TMP Enterprise has.

@DakotaSmith - Thank you for well thought out suggestions - and there will be no nasty remarks but a long winded reply

I'll just clarify my intentions regarding this particular project: "What would the Thermians do?" There are actually quite a few good projects out there that are trying to do what Matt Jefferies intended or what Franz Joseph intended but this one is based on the TOS episodes and most of the TOS movies.

The short reply:

For now this is how I am understanding the setup:
The TOS Enterprise is mainly powered by dilithium crystals that are re-charged by it's matter/antimatter reactor system containing 3 reactor cores. There is a reactor core in each nacelle and one in the engineering hull. Even though the nacelles can generate energy it can't be used to directly power the warp engines without going through the dilithium crystals in the energisers first. All the m/am energy is channeled through the dilithium crystals in the main energiser and then made available for the warp engines, weapons, etc.

It can be explained that all three reactor cores aren't involved in every episode. In "That Which Survives", Losira could've just sabotaged the engineering hull core and that'd be enough. In "The Savage Curtain", the aliens could've just disabled or targeted only the warp cores in the nacelles.

As to the vertical and horizontal intermix parts in the TOS ship: it'll probably change and go through revisions. The system does need some kind of "integrator" that brings together the matter and antimatter fuel in the engineering hull and a vertical setup seems logical for grabbing the matter fuel (that could be used for the impulse engines) from up top. There would be power pipes/intermix tubes carrying power from the nacelle cores to the energisers and back up to the nacelles to power the warp engines. I'd imagine more metal shielding and baffle plates than what we'd see on the TMP Enterprise which I think could use a similar setup

And my notes (the long part)

For example, there is plenty of evidence of a multiple matter-antimatter reactor model that indicates that there is a matter/antimatter reactor and fuel in each nacelle:


"The Doomsday Machine" - 35
WASHBURN: We made a complete check on structural and control damage, sir. As far as we can tell, something crashed through the deflectors and knocked out the generators. Somehow the antimatter in the warp drive pods has been deactivated.
Note: Evidence of antimatter in the warp drive pods aka nacelles.

SPOCK: I would say none, Captain. The energy generated by our power nacelles seems to attracts it. I doubt we could manoeuvre close enough without drawing a direct attack upon ourselves.

Note: Since the nacelles generate energy then it's a good chance they have a m/am reactor in them.
"The Apple" - 38
SCOTT: Scott, sir. Our antimatter pods are completely inert.

Note: Could the "antimatter pods" = the nacelles? Or is this specific to antimatter pod containing the antimatter fuel?

KIRK: Then use your imagination. Tie every ounce of power the ship has into the impulse engines. Discard the warp drive nacelles if you have to, and crack out of there with the main section, but get that ship out of there!

Note: Nothing specific to M/AM generation here other than the warp drive nacelles are weighing down the ship.
"Bread and Circuses" - 43
SPOCK: Portions of the antimatter nacelles, personal belongings. Captain, no signs of bodies whatsoever.

Note: More antimatter in the nacelles evidence.
"By Any Other Name" - 50
SPOCK: There is one other possibility, Mister Scott. The final decision, of course, must be the captain's, but I believe we must have it ready for him. The Enterprise is propelled by matter-anti-matter reactors. The barrier we must traverse is negative energy.

Note: An interesting clue. Multiple matter-antimatter reactors. Perhaps the three reactors spoken of in "Catspaw" (two for each nacelles and one for the engineering hull) or just two (one for each nacelle)?

SCOTT: I have opened the control valves to the matter-anti-matter nacelles. On your signal, I will flood them with positive energy.

Note: "Matter-antimatter nacelles" - Yes But what is this? Flood the nacelles with positive energy?
"The Savage Curtain" - 77
SCOTT: I can't explain it, sir, but the matter and antimatter are in red zone proximity.
KIRK: What caused that?
SCOTT: There's no knowing and there's no stopping it either. The shielding is breaking down. I estimate four hours before it goes completely. Four hours before the ship blows up.
...
KIRK: Scotty, inform Starfleet Command. Disengage nacelles, Jettison if possible. Mister Spock, assist them. Advise and analyse. Scotty? Scotty?

Note: Further evidence that there is matter and antimatter (and it happens to include the fuel) up in the nacelles. And this occurs very late in the production too... episode 77 no less.
"Errand of Mercy" - 27
SPOCK: Minor, Captain. We were most fortunate. Blast damage in decks ten and eleven, minor buckling in the antimatter pods, casualties very light.

Note: "Antimatter pods" could mean the nacelles or just the pods in the nacelles or antimatter pods located somewhere else...

"Metamorphosis" - 31
SPOCK: Helm does not answer, Captain.
KIRK: Neither do the pods. Communications are dead. Building overload. Cut all power relays.
...
SULU: Steady. No, Mister Scott, bearing three ten mark thirty five just cleared. No antimatter residue.
SCOTT: All scanners, spherical sweep. Range, maximum. They'll have to pick it up.

Note: This is shuttlecraft-related but this also hints that those were antimatter pods and thus a warp powered shuttle.
"I, Mudd" - 41
NORMAN: I am in total control of your ship. I have connected the matter-antimatter pods to the main navigational bank. A trigger relay is now in operation. Any attempts to alter course will result in immediate destruction of this vessel.

Note: The pods word again
but then we also have evidence for a single matter/antimatter reactor


"That Which Survives" - 69
SCOTT: Watkins, check the bypass valve on the matter/antimatter reaction chamber. Make sure it's not overheating.
WATKINS: But, Mister Scott, the board shows correct.
SCOTT: I didn't ask you to check the board, lad.

Note: Scotty indicates only one m/am reaction chamber (not multiples).

LOSIRA: Show me this unit. I wish to learn.
WATKINS: This is the matter-antimatter integrator control. That's the cut off switch.
LOSIRA: Not correct. That is the emergency overload bypass, which engages almost instantaneously. A wise precaution, considering it takes the antimatter longer to explode once the magnetic flow fails. I am for you, Mister Watkins.
WATKINS: Mister Scott, there's a strange woman who knows the entire plan of the Enterprise.

Note: A single overload bypass. Not multiple (at least two) if the m/am reactors were in the nacelles.

SCOTT: Aye, Mister Spock, and I found out why. The emergency bypass control of the matter-antimatter integrator is fused.
SCOTT: It's completely useless. The engines are running wild. There's no way to get at them. We should reach maximum overload in about fifteen minutes.

Note: Interestingly, Scotty couldn't just disengage the dilithium circuits/energisers and just cut the power to the warp engines. Perhaps if he did, then all that m/am energy has no where to go and well... boom!

SPOCK: As I recall the pattern of our fuel flow, there is an access tube leading to the matter-antimatter reaction chamber.
SCOTT: There's a service crawlway, but it's not meant to be used while the integrator operates.
SPOCK: Still, it is there, and it might be possible to shut off the fuel at that point.
SCOTT: What with? Bare hands?
SPOCK: A magnetic probe.
SCOTT: Any matter that comes in contact with antimatter triggers the explosion. And I'm not even sure a man can live in the crawlway in the energy stream of the magnetic field that bottles up the antimatter.

Note: Only one m/am reaction chamber mentioned here. And there appears to be only one place to shut off the antimatter fuel flow to it which doesn't match up with two nacelles with matter/antimatter reactors and their own antimatter fuel. Scotty would need to make a clone of himself if he were up in two different nacelles. Also, the service crawlway room wouldn't fit in the nacelle with the hallway outside.
and then some wiggle room to consider the possibility that the matter/antimatter reactor system consists of 3 reactor cores or chambers (1 in each nacelle and 1 in the engineering hull) that can be turned used individually or all together:

"Catspaw" - 30
DESALLE: Keep it up, Mister Chekov. Channel the entire output of reactors one, two, and three into the relay stations. Whatever it is, it's starting to weaken.

Note: Could indicate three matter/antimatter reactors.
"Galileo Seven" - 14
SCOTT: I can adjust the main reactor to function with a substitute fuel supply.

Note: This could mimic a 3 reactor setup for the Enterprise - a "main reactor" in the hull and one in each nacelle.

"Elaan of Troyius" - 57
SCOTT: The anti-matter pods are rigged to blow up the moment we go into warp drive.
...
SCOTT: I've got bad news, Captain. The entire dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused. No chance of repair.
SCOTT: It's completely unusable.
KIRK: No chance of restoring warp drive?
SCOTT: Not without dilithium crystals. We can't even generate enough power to fire our weapons.
...
SCOTT: Our shields will hold for a few passes, but without the matter-antimatter reactor, we've no chance. Captain, can you not call Starfleet on this emergency?
...
SPOCK: Captain, these are crude crystals. There is no way to judge what the unusual shapes will do to the energy flow.
...
SCOTT: Aye, that could blow us up just as effectively as...

Note: Scott specifies only ONE M/AM reactor but multiple antimatter pods. It is possible that the matter/antimatter reactor could contain multiple reactors (thus the multiple pods). Also with the dilithium sabotaged the m/am nacelles are unable to function indicating that some part of the energiser/dilithium machinery is up in the nacelles and also that generating a warp field or even power for weapons cannot be done with just the m/am reactor(s) but requires the dilithium crystals. Presumably the crystals need to be charged up.
I'll use that to segue into one of the apparent functions of the dilithium crystals in the series - they were super capacitors (or batteries):

"The Doomsday Machine" - 35
PALMER: Sir, Deck seven reports power failure in main energisers. Implementing emergency procedures. Severe casualties reported on decks three and four. Damage control party sealing off inner hull rupture.
SPOCK: It has ceased fire. We're being held in a tractor beam. We're being pulled inside, Commodore. You must veer off.
DECKER: Maintain phaser fire, helmsman.
SPOCK: We have lost warp power. If we don't break the tractor beam within sixty seconds, we never will.

Note: Warp power went when the main energisers failed and the dilithium crystals are tied to the energisers in "The Alternative Factor".
"The Alternative Factor" - 20
MASTERS: Whatever that phenomenon was, it drained almost all of our crystals completely. It could mean trouble.
KIRK: You have a talent for understatement, Lieutenant. Without full crystal power, our orbit will begin to decay in ten hours. Re-amplify immediately.
...
KIRK: Out of the question. Those crystals are the very heart of the power of my ship.
...
Captain's log, stardate 3088.7. We are no closer to finding an answer to the strange phenomenon than we were at the beginning. Not only have two of my crewmen been attacked, two of our dilithium crystals are missing, and without them the Enterprise cannot operate at full power. They must be found.

Note: Interestingly, not antimatter power exactly but "crystal power". This would suggest that the dilithium crystals on the Enterprise are like super capacitors or batteries that are charged up/amplified by presumably the matter/antimatter reactor. It is the dilithium energy that makes the warp propulsion go. The energisers not only provide power to the ship's systems but also act as a recharging mechanism as well. Full power means all four crystals (charged up.)

LAZARUS: That's very bad, Captain. If he comes through at a time of his own choosing. But I think if we hurry and you will help me, he can yet still be stopped. There's little time left. He meant to come through. When you accidentally passed through, it drained his crystals. It'll take him about ten minutes to re-energise with the equipment aboard his ship. That should give us enough time.

Note: Lazarus uses the crystals also as a super capacitor.
"The Paradise Syndrome" - 58
SPOCK: All engines stop. Hold position here.
SCOTT: All engines stop, sir.
SPOCK: Prepare to activate deflectors.
SULU: Aye, sir.
CHEKOV: Power dropping, sir.
SPOCK: Engineering, maintain full power. Full power.
SCOTT: Dilithium crystal circuit's failing, sir. We'll have to replace it.

Note: Scotty has ejected one of the crystals which explains why the ship isn't at full power.


SPOCK: Not now.
CHEKOV: Zero. Deflection point now, sir.
SPOCK: Activate deflectors.
CHEKOV: Power dropping, sir.
SPOCK: Degree of deflection, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Not enough, Mister Spock. It's only point zero zero one three degrees.
SPOCK: Recircuit power to engines. Maximum speed heading three seven mark zero one zero.

Note: Evidence that the warp engines get a power feed from presumably the dilithium circuits/energisers.
"The Day of the Dove" - 66
SCOTT: The ship's dilithium crystals are deteriorating. We can't stop the process.
KIRK: Time factor?
SCOTT: In twelve minutes, we'll be totally without engine power.
...
SCOTT: There's no change, Captain. The dilithium crystals are discharging.

Note: Further evidence that the crystals store power.
A more detailed WIP of the power distribution onboard the TOS Enterprise.


Last edited by blssdwlf; September 11 2010 at 07:53 PM. Reason: added Galileo Seven, extra links...
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Old September 11 2010, 08:23 AM   #230
T'Girl
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

DakotaSmith wrote: View Post
Notice that everything's going on up in the nacelles.
If the engines consume the majority of the reactor output (charged plasma) it would make sense to put the reactors in the engines. But if the power converters have to be fiddled with by the crew, then place them where the crew can get at them casually.

DakotaSmith wrote: View Post
Dilithium crystals were needed for something, but it was never clear entirely what.
Half the energy of antimatter annihilation is in the form of neutrinos, if the dilithium crystals could absorb/harvested this energy, convert it into say electrical power, using a piezoelectric effect, this would explain the power loss (dimming lights, battery use) that occur when the crystals are lost.

Psion wrote: View Post
All the later artwork shows the domes as Bussard collectors
Problem with this is that in First Contact Zepram Cockrane's test ship possessed these domes. Given the brevity of the flight and that it was in the inner solar system, bussard collectors would seem to have been unnecessary.

Psion wrote: View Post
Your diagram would indicate that even without crystals, the ship could initiate warp, but I believe the original show directly contradicts that in several episodes.
Cockrane's ship would've been unlikely to be equipped with dilithium crystals. Mudd's Women suggested that the ship can move at slower warp speeds without crystals.


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Old September 11 2010, 03:09 PM   #231
DakotaSmith
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Half the energy of antimatter annihilation is in the form of neutrinos,
I think you miss the crux of my argument:

In 1964-1969, there was no real explanation of precisely how the engines worked, nor how dilithium worked into that process. The engines were big, powerful, apparently worked by the controlled reaction of Matter/Antimatter, and needed dilithium crystals for the process to work. Neutrinos -- indeed, subatomic particles in general -- were never mentioned in TOS.

That's all we ever knew in TOS. Everything specific about how the engines work, the involvement of dilithium as a key factor in the M/Am reaction, etc ... all of that came about twenty years after TOS had aired.

If you look at the Enterprise just as we saw her in TOS, there's no evidence that there is an intermix shaft (vertical, horizontal, diagonal, or otherwise) anywhere that we ever saw.

I contend that from the perspective of the ship as designed, the Engineering sets we saw were the engineering spaces that existed (though there's a hullfull of others we never had occasion to see). We never saw anything like a vertical or horizontal intermix chamber because Jeffries never imagined that one existed on his Enterprise.

There was no M/Am reaction occurring inside the ship, but rather up in the nacelles. If there were an intermix shaft, it was located in the nacelles.

As an aviation engineer among other things, Jeffries understood that things that big and that dangerous simply shouldn't be handled by human beings in operational conditions. Running around a working M/Am reaction would have been something that almost never happened in Jeffries' world, and would have been dangerous as hell if it did.

I think to understand his perspective, you need to have been around when he was making engineering drawings. There was no microcircuitry: advanced computers meant lots of wires, resistors, capacitors, and plenty of Handwavium. Engines that drove big things were big: airliners, ocean liners, even the advanced nuclear vessels of the day had big engines.

Furthermore, the public love-affair with atomic fission was in its heydey. It's a testament to Jeffries' forethought that he understood that even fusion reactions wouldn't generate the power needed to warp space, so he went one step further with controlled annihilation reactions.

But he didn't get specific with it. It was big, it was powerful, it was inherently more dangerous than nuclear fission, and it needed dilithium (Handwavium) to work.

All the arguments about how the engines work that were developed in TNG and later do not retcon well to TOS because they are attempting to unify two radically different designs. I think it's fascinating to see attempts to retcon it, but in my opinion, it's still a retcon. It wasn't what Jeffries intended.

And that's fine -- the WWTD viewpoint is perfectly valid. I certainly find the entire exercise artistically amazing. Regardless of my feelings on the subject, this is one of the most creative attempts I've ever seen.

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Old September 11 2010, 03:18 PM   #232
DakotaSmith
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
I'll just clarify my intentions regarding this particular project: "What would the Thermians do?"
Awesome -- that's a fantastic way to put it.

WWTD? -- What Would the Thermians Do?

Indeed, that's the most accurate way to put most of the fanac engaged-in on the Treknology side. Somebody needs to make little wrist bracelets that read, "What Would the Thermians Do?" and sell them at cons ...

Anyway, I totally understand where you're coming from and have no desire to dissuade you. If the project you want to do is to place the original Enterprise into the "Enterprise design lineage" as established by the franchise as a whole, more power to you.

It's fantastic work, and as is evidenced by the notes you've posted, you've clearly done considerably more research on the subject than I. Kudos.

I was simply pointing out that there are two perspectives: WWTD? and WWMJD? -- What Would Matt Jeffries Do?

My contention is that WWTD != WWMJD. But that's fine -- no reason that it should. I just throw the idea out there, use it or not. You're still doing fantastic work.

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Old September 11 2010, 03:18 PM   #233
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
I tend to agree that MJ designed the action to be going on the nacelles. However, certain episodes (such as That Which Survives) clearly point to a single area of reaction between matter and antimatter.

In a MJ-nacelle style setup though, I believe that the ship could enter Warp even with the lithium crystal circuits all blown. However, since things like inertial dampeners and deflectors would be unpowered at this point, you really wouldn't want to!
@Mytran - Yep which makes things a little complicated. I was thinking that the ship could've been originally nacelle powered in the first season or two and then switched over to a central core in the 3rd season but "The Savage Curtain" nixed that.

So a solution that seems to work is that there are three m/am reactor cores and they can all be referred to as the m/am reactor (system) or individually (central) or the pair for the nacelles

@T'Girl and Psion - Based on "Mudd's Women" and "Elaan of Troyius" it would seem that the lithium/dilithium converter assembly has or can by rigged with a bypass circuit. In "Mudd's Women" they were burned out when the engines superheated and in "Elaan" the assembly was fused. "The Wrath of Khan" does show a successfully rigged bypass of the main energisers though. In anycase, it does sound like with a successful bypass and on m/am power only (no dilithium) a very low warp speed is possible via the warp engines or impulse engines pushed to FTL, IMHO.
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Old September 11 2010, 04:14 PM   #234
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf, I was inspired by your description of WWTD to produce this motivational poster. Please feel free to adapt it to your needs so as to inspire you in this project.



Dakota Smith

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Old September 11 2010, 04:55 PM   #235
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@DakotaSmith - Ahahaha awesome. That made my morning
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Old September 11 2010, 05:46 PM   #236
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Glad you liked it. I made a WWMJD? version, as well ...
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Old September 16 2010, 03:28 PM   #237
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Re-worked the blocking out of S1 machinery for reactors, energiser and propulsion based on the latest model I posted a few days back.

There are 3 M/AM Reactor cores which make up the M/AM Reactor (system). I blocked in the basic core elements (reactor core, Antimatter fuel pod, Matter fuel cylinders) in one of the nacelles to get a sense of the space taken, copied to the other nacelle and re-arranged the same parts in the Engineering hull. Interestingly, the parts fit the bottom hatches. The reactor is shaped like an over-armored warp reaction chamber from TNG turned on it's side

The M/AM energy conduit runs a similar path that the TMP Enterprise Warp Intermix shafts would run. There are also separate matter and antimatter fuel lines that run between the 3 fuel locations. I've included where a possible location could be for Scotty's fuel crawlway from "That Which Survives".

The lithium (and then later dilithium) energiser machinery is positioned to take the M/AM energy, do it's magic crystal amplification and pumps the power back out through the various power conduits/circuits. A feed branches off and back up to energiser units in the nacelles.

I took a best guess with the warp engines. The rear sphere is layed out to be retractable.

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Old September 16 2010, 04:09 PM   #238
B.J.
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP


THAT is the way to do things! I always imagined that the engineering section of these ships were filled with all kinds of monstrous machinery to make them go, but most fan projects don't go far beyond the engineering room seen in the show. I also like how you don't constrain yourself to pre-laid-out decks. Real ships make the machinery fit first, then they fit the decks in whatever is left.

Nice work!
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Old September 16 2010, 05:21 PM   #239
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Very, very, VERY cool work!
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Old September 16 2010, 05:35 PM   #240
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

WOW!
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