RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,744
Posts: 5,215,838
Members: 24,215
Currently online: 801
Newest member: rpoe0728

TrekToday headlines

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

New X-Men: Days of Future Past Trailer
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Nimoy to Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone Comic
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

These Are The Voyages TOS Season Two Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

Kirk’s Well Wishes To Kirk
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Quinto In New Starz Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Star Trek: Horizon Film
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14

Star Trek: Fleet Captains Game Expansion
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 3 2010, 01:26 PM   #16
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Shields and Screens

The graphics and Saavik's order might be unrelated - after all, the graphic says "Intruder Alert" rather clearly. And it's not an area around the bridge that's being highlighted, apparently, but more like a deck below the bridge. Perhaps an intruder was detected on that deck (a malfunction, or a simulation accidentally left on?), or perhaps that deck reported ready to repel intruders? (The graphic is recycled from ST:TMP where it indicated the intrusion of the V'Ger probe...)

OTOH, we could argue that since these "defensive fields" did zip in stopping Khan from hurting the Enterprise with his weapons, they provided a defense against something else besides weapons. The terminology would be rather consistent if we decided that defensive fields are forcefields that stop transporters: they would be an intruder control technique, warranting the intruder alert text being visible on the same display.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 3 2010, 01:55 PM   #17
keekwai
Lieutenant Commander
 
keekwai's Avatar
 
Location: Chanthaburi, Thailand
Re: Shields and Screens

Different writers, various actors .. all taking their own little slant on things and forgetting or ignoring precedents .. perhaps?
keekwai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 3 2010, 02:30 PM   #18
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Shields and Screens

As the list shows, the only thing where the "issue" even arises is within ST:TMP. None of the other movies feature multiple different names for the thing-that-stops-enemy-weapons. Moreover, all of them use the same single name for this thing: "shields". This is in line with much of TOS and TNG, where heroes sometimes spoke of shields, sometimes of deflectors, but never of both at the same time.

In-universe, we could say that shields and deflectors are two names for the same thing, just like our heroes may ride on turbolifts or turboelevators. Out-universe, a single bunch of writers created the confused mess that is TMP. Apparently they wanted to convey the idea of at least two separate protective systems, with their "X and Y" phrases, but couldn't agree to the exact terminology, the exact X and Y to be paired. Which is pretty much understandable if they kept on receiving memos like that Roddenberry one quoted from the Phase II book...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9 2010, 08:59 PM   #19
publiusr
Commodore
 
Re: Shields and Screens

Well, in the Dreadnaught books, didn't Star Empire or whatever have multi-layered shields.

I'm looking at ST:TMP as having disparate systems, that by TNG, are all integrated into one system, either on or off.
publiusr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2010, 02:59 AM   #20
Unicron
Continuity Spackle
 
Unicron's Avatar
 
Location: Cybertron
Send a message via ICQ to Unicron
Re: Shields and Screens

I forget (without looking) whether the Star Empire had multi-layered shields, but it was stated to have a very highly advanced form of armor that could take more punishment than standard starship hulls.
__________________

"My dream is to eat candy and poop emeralds. I'm halfway successful."


Catbert, Evil Director of Human Resources
Unicron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2010, 07:20 AM   #21
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Shields and Screens

The ship had triple shielding in the book, but our "anti-Mary-Sue" heroine couldn't figure out how to operate this technology; what we saw happen was that the ship had one set of shields up, the enemy burned through them, and then the heroine struggled to get another set up (and failed). Perhaps "triple shielding" was always meant to be a succession of shields, with #2 applied when #1 fails? Or perhaps our Lieutenant Piper just didn't have clue, and a proper mode of operations would have #2 applied on top of #1, and #3 on top of #2, all the time?

But yeah, the ship had physical armor, too. Not amounting to much when the shields were down, it seems.

Personally, I'd prefer the idea that most starships after the ENT era have two distinct shielding systems or modes: bubbles and skintights. These can be referred to collectively, or then described separately - but very few people would bother to describe them separately because they aren't usually operated separately. And the people who go for the separate description can't agree on the terminology, exactly because it's so rarely used. Most just say "shields" or "deflectors", which are synonyms in the "lift"/"elevator" vein, but some apply obscure or arcane terms like "screens" or "forcefields" to indicate the components of the system.

Only "navigational deflectors" or "beaming shields" are truly separate systems for separate purposes, as the name explicates...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11 2010, 06:06 PM   #22
Unicron
Continuity Spackle
 
Unicron's Avatar
 
Location: Cybertron
Send a message via ICQ to Unicron
Re: Shields and Screens

I seem to recall the improvised crew of rebels had a number of general difficulties operating the Star Empire, due to design differences. I definitely recall that the ship had no library computer. Commander Burch was probably the only one with any specific familiarity with the ship.
__________________

"My dream is to eat candy and poop emeralds. I'm halfway successful."


Catbert, Evil Director of Human Resources
Unicron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11 2010, 08:15 PM   #23
Wingsley
Commodore
 
Wingsley's Avatar
 
Location: Wingsley
Re: Shields and Screens

Maybe ENT provided a final hint on this issue:

The NX-01 Enterprise did not have any shields/forcefield technology at all. The only defense seemed to be polarized hull plating, which could be energized as a defense.

Look at it this way: "screens" or "deflectors" would be the outer layer of defense, an relatively high-energy layer comprised of overlapping forcefields. "Shields" would be the inner-most layer, comprised of polarized hull plating and maybe an intermediate forcefield.
__________________
"The way that you wander is the way that you choose. / The day that you tarry is the day that you lose. / Sunshine or thunder, a man will always wonder / Where the fair wind blows ..."
-- Lyrics, Jeremiah Johnson's theme.
Wingsley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12 2010, 03:10 AM   #24
Nightfall to-Ennien
Lieutenant Commander
 
Nightfall to-Ennien's Avatar
 
Location: The Everfree Forest
Re: Shields and Screens

Personally, it was my understanding that at the time of TMP, the Enterprise was equipped with all the latest gadgets, a sort of testbed, so instead of just forcefield-based shields, they were also equipped with a new, to borrow a phrase from TWOK, "Defense fields" based on the same technology used for deflectors, deflector screens. Witness Sulu's comment after V'Ger's weapon didn't destroy the Enterprise, "The new screens held!"

I figured they were developed as a defense more effective against physical projectiles, since they were based on the same technology as navigational deflectors. Balance of Terror showed that the plasma torpedoes were significantly more effective against the Enterprise's shields. Lo and behold, by the time the Refit is rolled out, torpedo launchers are significantly more visually prominent and seem to be used more often than in TOS, when it seemed beam weapons like phasers and disruptors were more commonly used.

By the time of TNG, they probably just put both up at the same time, maybe even combining the projector units. Just my two cents.
__________________
On the Starship Enterprise, no one is alone. No one.
Nightfall to-Ennien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2010, 05:59 AM   #25
EmperorTiberius
Captain
 
EmperorTiberius's Avatar
 
Re: Shields and Screens

It's all the same I think. That memo from Gene is interesting, but everything changed in TNG
EmperorTiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2010, 07:07 AM   #26
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Shields and Screens

Or "changed back", since things had been just as simple back in TOS and TAS.

I figured they were developed as a defense more effective against physical projectiles, since they were based on the same technology as navigational deflectors.
It does make intuitive sense that bubblelike shields standing off the ship's hull would be a better cushion against physical impacts... No real sense, perhaps, but intuitive sense.

Yeah, I like your reasoning. Possibly the bubble mode for shields was all-new in TMP, but this was the last time the mode was considered a separate device; thereafter everybody just considered it part of the generic shields.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24 2010, 06:13 AM   #27
caisson2delta
Captain
 
caisson2delta's Avatar
 
Location: The South of Florida
Re: Shields and Screens

I may be mistaken, but weren't the lines in the hull plating (grid lines) referred to as part of the shield grid or defensive grid? If this is the case, could we assume, as Timo suggested, that this system provides the skin tight shield system? The screens, as Kirk often would say during TOS, might be the invisible energy bubble that extended well past the hull. Perhaps there was no mention of seperate systems, after TMP, because it was an unmentioned upgrade after the encounter with Vger. Also, when Saavik mentions about activating defenses, this may be referring to something involving the hull plating.
caisson2delta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3 2010, 07:32 AM   #28
Darkwing
Commodore
 
Location: This dry land thing is too wierd!
Re: Shields and Screens

in the TMP novelization, shields referred to the standard TOS shields - several separate forcefield defenses that might overlap, but still had gaps. the forcefield was mentioned as a new system - one single bubble that had no gaps. It seemed to be more powerful than any individual shield, but provide less overall protection than the shields. It's important contribution was that an enveloping attack like V'Ger's weapon could get around shields, but not the forcefield. Seeing a single bubble effect in TMP led me to figure that over time, Starfleet merged the two related systems into one, and so sometime after TMP the older term was retained for the new unified defense, which replaced the older, segmented defense.
__________________
If you don’t drink the kool-aid, you’re a baaad person - Rev Jim Jones
Almond kool-aid, anyone? Or do you prefer pudding?- Darkwing
Darkwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 10 2010, 08:19 PM   #29
publiusr
Commodore
 
Re: Shields and Screens

I can see that. In Nemesis, they had segemented shields in one graphic, and a bubble in another. All part of one overall system.
publiusr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
tmp, tos

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:47 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.