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Old September 8 2010, 03:44 AM   #16
Kaiser
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Re: "Challenger"

DFScott wrote: View Post
Reiterating something I've said here before several years ago, but which others may not have seen: Dennis, I think maybe you understand the proper proportions of the Constitution class cruiser better than any modeler out there, including those who have worked at Paramount/CBS. You can do any number of variations on this theme, from subtle to bold, and yet they all still manage to maintain this "golden mean" that Matt Jefferies set forth. My personal favorite has been the Venture NCC-1946/Challenger NCC-2099, which looks (probably intentionally) like a Constitution class refit refit, to keep going into the era of the Ambassador class. Although your slightly retro Phoenix NCC-800 is also strong.

So looking at this version of Challenger NX-1799, my first thought is. . . ah, that's better. I cannot get over the whap-jaw appearance of the STXI Enterprise, like it has baggy eyes and an overbite. This rendition, at least, applies some of Abrams' "hot-rod" ideas to a model at the correct proportions.

But you know. . . Even with the 1799's pylons seated at the proper angle, with round, red Bussard collectors, they're still not my favorite. Compared to the 2099's red bullet-nose pylons with the Sovereign-like struts, I still can't get a feel for Ryan Church's design choices of baggy, Bill Clinton-like eyes, and the half-shell with the cyan lights peeking through. With every other "official" design, I could always ascertain some purpose for the visible design elements; these things still look like poorly planned disco lights to me.

What I think your new model proves is that the Enterprise didn't need these particular design additions; and that the jutting forward of the nose, extension of the dish, and flapping up of the wings didn't justify their existence. Even something whose differences are more aesthetically subtle, like your Intrepid NCC-1986, would have been more pleasing for me to look at on-screen. Making the Enterprise wear these bags on the big screen is like casting Sophia Loren in the starring role but making her wear a chicken costume. Sure, it's still Sophia, but why ruin such graceful lines with poor adornment?

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Venture NCC-1946/Challenger NCC-2099
Intrepid NCC-1986
Phoenix NCC-800

Where can i see these ships?
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Old September 8 2010, 04:07 AM   #17
YARN
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Re: "Challenger"

Dennis wrote: View Post

Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd post a profile shot.

Looks gorgeous.

The profile shot reveals what I think is a weakness with JJ-Prise design. The nacelles create the optical illusion that they are droopy/curved like they were made out of candle wax and melted a bit.

Still, it is a much better balanced version of what we get in the film. It is like the JJ-Prise made pretty.
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Old September 8 2010, 05:39 AM   #18
Gep Malakai
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Re: "Challenger"

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but -- in that side view -- I think the nacelles should be bigger.

But it looks gorgeous. It nice use of the new film's (lovely) styling while avoiding the...odder...aesthetic choices of Church's design. I will echo the upthread sentiment that the refit body could be altered even more, though.
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Old September 8 2010, 05:42 AM   #19
Bryan B)
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Re: "Challenger"

Looks great.... freakin awesome.... gorgeous.... I like yours better...
Ditto to all the above. This is what I expected to see in STXI... and what we should see in XII!

If you want to avoid any more saggy-eyes comments or Bill Clinton references, you could delete or shrink the nacelle cradles under the bussards. Just a constructive alternative--by no means a critique.



Captain Jean-Luc Picard: [about Data's recent violin concert] Your playing is quite beautiful.
Lt. Cmdr. Data: Strictly speaking, sir, it is not my playing. It is a precise imitation of the techniques of Jascha Heifetz and Trenka Bron-Ken.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Is there nothing of Data in what I'm hearing? You see, you chose the violinist. Heifetz and Bron-Ken have radically different styles, different techniques, and yet... you combined them, successfully.
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Old September 8 2010, 06:12 AM   #20
Kelso
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Re: "Challenger"

I definitely like what you did with the neck/deflector area. Did you bring the deflector in a bit or does your variation on the torpedo launcher just help that much?

Dennis wrote: View Post

Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd post a profile shot.
You read my mind.
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Old September 8 2010, 01:07 PM   #21
MadMan1701A
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Re: "Challenger"

I really like this... it shows, I think, that the STXI Enterprise isn't as far off from the mark as a lot of people think.
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Old September 8 2010, 01:27 PM   #22
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Challenger"

No, it's not - when I first took a good look at the JJPrise, I was surprised by the number of design cues that seemed to be carried forward from the TOS version of the ship almost bypassing the next three or four decades of ships.

The Church nacelles are like every other good Trek spaceship - they look really good from some angles and a little weird from others. I see the "droop" effect but it's only a nuisance in a still shot from one angle. If anything, the things seem to rise rather extremely from front to back in most views.

Kelso, I positioned the deflector - oddly enough - just about like the TOS deflector.

I started out somewhat further from the Refit, where the engineering hull is concerned, and moved back toward it. The front's different, the rear cove is longer...probably the closest bit to the Refit is the torpedo assembly, and its cross section is larger and rounder. Everything on this is just a little rounder than on the Refit. I wasn't able to use a single part of the mesh for the Refit that I did years ago, though I'd originally thought I would. Maybe I'll do a variation on a variation at some point, curving the pylons and so forth.
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Old September 8 2010, 03:02 PM   #23
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Re: "Challenger"

If this had been the STXI starship, I wouldn't have complained. Oh, sure, I might have made a smart-as* comment or two about the locust wings or the Clinton eyes on the nacelles (a bit like casting a blue-eyed Kirk), but nothing here is so dramatic that it alters the character of the ship.

What Dennis has done here is corrected the Ryan Church 1701. Now, if he had been one of the designers in the movie, and this ship had been shown to J. J. Abrams, my guess is that Abrams would have rejected it as being too much like the original ship. I actually wonder if Church or John Eaves may have submitted a design that was much more like this Challenger in the beginning, and Abrams' reply was, "Make it different somehow," so to please the guy he jutted the nose forward and tipped the wings up. And he said, "Oooh, yeah, go with that!" Seeing the "making-of" video on the STXI Blu-ray gave me a little insight into that director's character, and I think there's more Ed Wood in that guy than most people give him credit for.

But I digress. This ship would've worked for me. Certain things don't require changing, and this design doesn't trample on those things.

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Old September 8 2010, 03:29 PM   #24
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Challenger"

Well, I'll continue to disagree about the JJPrise. If I didn't like it so much, I'd never have borrowed from it - as far as I'm concerned, Church corrected things that I've never liked about the post-TOS Trek look.
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Old September 8 2010, 05:53 PM   #25
CDR6
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Re: "Challenger"

Very nice! This has the right stuff. Would love to see her in action...

Regards,
Chuck
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Old September 8 2010, 10:05 PM   #26
Kelso
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Re: "Challenger"

I actually really like the new Enterprise. It isn't as graceful or elegant looking as my Enterprise (that is, that one from those 80's movies) but the new one looks fast and awesome- far more appropriate for a modern day summer blockbuster.

The only thing that still bugs me about the new one is the placement of the neck and deflector. That still looks weird to me.
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Old September 8 2010, 10:59 PM   #27
Titan Designer
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Re: "Challenger"

Love It!!!
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Old September 8 2010, 11:06 PM   #28
USS Intrepid
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Re: "Challenger"

Dennis, this is really nice work.
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Old September 9 2010, 03:23 AM   #29
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Challenger"

Thanks.

Really had to get this sucker out of the way so that I can concentrate on another mesh now, in my copious free time.


Kelso wrote: View Post
The only thing that still bugs me about the new one is the placement of the neck and deflector. That still looks weird to me.
The deflector is a little too big in diameter relative to the engineering hull, for me - in fact, my least favorite part of Church's design is the engineering hull. It harks back in an exaggerated way to the underweight engineering hull on the TOS ship. One of the significant improvements that Jefferies made when he revised the lines of the model for "Star Trek Phase II" was to fatten that part of the ship up.

The neck on the JJPrise actually makes a much stronger and more plausible connection between the two hulls; in that respect it's more similar to the 1701-D. It's pretty clear when you actually study the design that they did a lot of research into all the different versions of the Enterprise and to Trek starship design in general; there are visual references to the Excelsior as well.
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Old September 9 2010, 12:41 PM   #30
ST-One
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Re: "Challenger"

kaisernathan1701 wrote: View Post
DFScott wrote: View Post
Reiterating something I've said here before several years ago, but which others may not have seen: Dennis, I think maybe you understand the proper proportions of the Constitution class cruiser better than any modeler out there, including those who have worked at Paramount/CBS. You can do any number of variations on this theme, from subtle to bold, and yet they all still manage to maintain this "golden mean" that Matt Jefferies set forth. My personal favorite has been the Venture NCC-1946/Challenger NCC-2099, which looks (probably intentionally) like a Constitution class refit refit, to keep going into the era of the Ambassador class. Although your slightly retro Phoenix NCC-800 is also strong.

So looking at this version of Challenger NX-1799, my first thought is. . . ah, that's better. I cannot get over the whap-jaw appearance of the STXI Enterprise, like it has baggy eyes and an overbite. This rendition, at least, applies some of Abrams' "hot-rod" ideas to a model at the correct proportions.

But you know. . . Even with the 1799's pylons seated at the proper angle, with round, red Bussard collectors, they're still not my favorite. Compared to the 2099's red bullet-nose pylons with the Sovereign-like struts, I still can't get a feel for Ryan Church's design choices of baggy, Bill Clinton-like eyes, and the half-shell with the cyan lights peeking through. With every other "official" design, I could always ascertain some purpose for the visible design elements; these things still look like poorly planned disco lights to me.

What I think your new model proves is that the Enterprise didn't need these particular design additions; and that the jutting forward of the nose, extension of the dish, and flapping up of the wings didn't justify their existence. Even something whose differences are more aesthetically subtle, like your Intrepid NCC-1986, would have been more pleasing for me to look at on-screen. Making the Enterprise wear these bags on the big screen is like casting Sophia Loren in the starring role but making her wear a chicken costume. Sure, it's still Sophia, but why ruin such graceful lines with poor adornment?

DFS-2010/A
Venture NCC-1946/Challenger NCC-2099
Intrepid NCC-1986
Phoenix NCC-800

Where can i see these ships?
Here is a little glimpse of the Phoenix.




Dennis: She's a beauty. A very nice amalgam of the various styles.
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