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Old September 3 2010, 11:16 AM   #16
Pauln6
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

It is a shame that they didn't have more revolving guest stars. Apart from Vorik, it seemed that it was only in the final series that we had minor recurring characters like Chell and Carey returning and Wildman appeared once per season in episodes relating to motherhood, which is annoying as she was the only science officer we ever really saw. I think the show would have been stronger if we'd had all the rebel maquis appearing occasionally in addition to Chell, Carey occasionally, Wildman appearing twice per season instead of once so she could actually do some science officer stuff, and the twins as proper characters in a couple of shows so that Harry's angst could have been part of a wider plot.
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Old September 3 2010, 01:52 PM   #17
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I think the show would have been stronger if we'd had all the rebel maquis appearing occasionally in addition to Chell
Well, we did get Ayala. He even got six lines over the course of seven seasons
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Old September 3 2010, 01:56 PM   #18
exodus
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

SPCTRE wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I think the show would have been stronger if we'd had all the rebel maquis appearing occasionally in addition to Chell
Well, we did get Ayala. He even got six lines over the course of seven seasons
Icheb.

There was a black crewman with kinda bulgy eyes that kept popping up from time to time. I can't recall the ep. exactly but it's one where they turn the mess hall into a sickbay & Janeway sits down next to him and comforts him. Does anyone know who I'm talking about? He wears a security/engineering uniform.



On a side note, I'm kinda glad they didn't focus on side characters too much because if you couldn't give enough development to your main members like Tuvok, Neelix, Harry & Chakotay. Then IMO you're stealing screne time from actors that deserved it far more. But that's just a behind the scenes comment. If we didn't have to worry about such things..............then yes. For a ship of only 150, we should have been bumping into Chell or Tal Celest every other episode.
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Old September 3 2010, 02:15 PM   #19
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

exodus wrote: View Post
SPCTRE wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I think the show would have been stronger if we'd had all the rebel maquis appearing occasionally in addition to Chell
Well, we did get Ayala. He even got six lines over the course of seven seasons
Icheb.

There was a black crewman with kinda bulgy eyes that kept popping up from time to time. I can't recall the ep. exactly but it's one where they turn the mess hall into a sickbay & Janeway sits down next to him and comforts him. Does anyone know who I'm talking about? He wears a security/engineering uniform.

On a side note, I'm kinda glad they didn't focus on side characters too much because if you couldn't give enough development to your main members like Tuvok, Neelix, Harry & Chakotay. Then IMO you're stealing screne time from actors that deserved it far more. But that's just a behind the scenes comment. If we didn't have to worry about such things..............then yes. For a ship of only 150, we should have been bumping into Chell or Tal Celest every other episode.
Lol - that sounds like Ayala in fact. I actually find that the main characters can develop in more interesting ways if they are put into situations with different, fresh characters. Harry's arc would have been more fun to me if we'd actually had a few episodes where could see the love triangle with the twins developing as part of the plots of other stories rather than an awkward add-on. We might even have developed as much sympathy for the twin with the crush on him if she'd been allowed to develop fully. Plus we'd have got some spare characters to bump off - killing one of the twins would have made a great story.
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Old September 3 2010, 02:21 PM   #20
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

exodus wrote: View Post
There was a black crewman with kinda bulgy eyes that kept popping up from time to time. I can't recall the ep. exactly but it's one where they turn the mess hall into a sickbay & Janeway sits down next to him and comforts him. Does anyone know who I'm talking about? He wears a security/engineering uniform.
^ Yeah, I know him. He remained unnamed AFAIR.
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Old September 3 2010, 02:32 PM   #21
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

I disagree with the whole transferring off the flagship = a huge step down. Look at Riker, who ended up with Titan. Than again, he turned down a lot of earlier chances at promotion.
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Old September 3 2010, 03:00 PM   #22
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

SPCTRE wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
There was a black crewman with kinda bulgy eyes that kept popping up from time to time. I can't recall the ep. exactly but it's one where they turn the mess hall into a sickbay & Janeway sits down next to him and comforts him. Does anyone know who I'm talking about? He wears a security/engineering uniform.
^ Yeah, I know him. He remained unnamed AFAIR.
My bad - he was Ensign Ashmore - I was thinking of him instead of Ayala. A comprehensive list is here:

http://www.loony-archivist.com/lowerdecks/crew.html
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Old September 3 2010, 03:07 PM   #23
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Leathco wrote: View Post
I disagree with the whole transferring off the flagship = a huge step down. Look at Riker, who ended up with Titan. Than again, he turned down a lot of earlier chances at promotion.
He turned them down because he wanted to captain the Enterprise, remember.
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Old September 3 2010, 03:22 PM   #24
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

But Vorik was just an ensign. He was never shown to be high-up in engineering. In fact, it was explicitly noted that lieutenant Joe Carey was B'Elanna's immediate subordinate.

And I recall reading an interview with the actor who played Carey that he would have wanted more appearances. I don't think it was because he was too busy. It was odd they brought him back years later just to kill him. I guess they thought it would add emotional weight. But after such a long absence, most people probably didn't know he wasn't a one-time extra.

And yes, Chell did make a couple reappearances, but he looked like a completely different person. They really drastically changed his Bolian makeup.
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Old September 3 2010, 03:44 PM   #25
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Cepstrum wrote: View Post
But Vorik was just an ensign. He was never shown to be high-up in engineering. In fact, it was explicitly noted that lieutenant Joe Carey was B'Elanna's immediate subordinate.

And I recall reading an interview with the actor who played Carey that he would have wanted more appearances. I don't think it was because he was too busy. It was odd they brought him back years later just to kill him. I guess they thought it would add emotional weight. But after such a long absence, most people probably didn't know he wasn't a one-time extra.

And yes, Chell did make a couple reappearances, but he looked like a completely different person. They really drastically changed his Bolian makeup.
TNG era generally cocked up the concept of the characters' ranks because non-coms rarely feature as characters. However, as an officer, Vorik would have been quite high up the command food chain. chief petty officers would have been far more experienced but he would have authority to order them about. Often in TNG there are too many 'chiefs' i.e. smokin hot young inexperienced ensigns and not enough 'indians' i.e. crewmen and experienced older non-coms like petty officers and chief petty officers.
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Old September 3 2010, 03:58 PM   #26
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Considering that Mr Kim, an ensign, occasionally was in command, being an ensigt in Engineering must quite high in the ladder there.
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Old September 3 2010, 04:01 PM   #27
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Marten wrote: View Post
Considering that Mr Kim, an ensign, occasionally was in command, being an ensigt in Engineering must quite high in the ladder there.
Wasn't Harry suppose to be like gifted in the field?
Didn't he graduate at the top of his class or something?
Wasn't that implied in "Non Sequier"
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Old September 3 2010, 04:23 PM   #28
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

exodus wrote: View Post
Marten wrote: View Post
Considering that Mr Kim, an ensign, occasionally was in command, being an ensigt in Engineering must quite high in the ladder there.
Wasn't Harry suppose to be like gifted in the field?
Didn't he graduate at the top of his class or something?
Wasn't that implied in "Non Sequier"
And yet he didn't graduate as a Lt(jg) like Kirk, NuKirk, NuUhura etc. Kim is the Chief Operations Officer - as far as I can tell he didn't inherit the role from a senior officer. Each key position requires three officers (one for each shift) so Kim would be the main man with two people (most likely ensigns) lower than him in the chain of command but of equal or lower rank - it seems that helm and ops are staffed by officers (Helm = command; Ops = engineer) usually but occasionally by chief petty officers (O'Brien, DiFalco - although she was technically navigation rather than ops).

Engineering is a bit different because you have a lot of crewman carrying out standard maintenance and repairs at all times, supervised by officers or senior non-coms. On a ship the size of Voyager I can't imagine that they can have much more than half a dozen officers to supervise the various shifts and key positions overall. Vorik most likely filled the role of assistant chief engineer when he was on duty. Carey, as a more senior officer would be in charge of shifts when Torres wasn't on duty, which is why we rarely see him, with a different ensign or CPO as his number two.
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Old September 3 2010, 05:15 PM   #29
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Marten wrote: View Post
Considering that Mr Kim, an ensign, occasionally was in command, being an ensigt in Engineering must quite high in the ladder there.
Wasn't Harry suppose to be like gifted in the field?
Didn't he graduate at the top of his class or something?
Wasn't that implied in "Non Sequier"
And yet he didn't graduate as a Lt(jg) like Kirk, NuKirk, NuUhura etc. Kim is the Chief Operations Officer - as far as I can tell he didn't inherit the role from a senior officer. Each key position requires three officers (one for each shift) so Kim would be the main man with two people (most likely ensigns) lower than him in the chain of command but of equal or lower rank - it seems that helm and ops are staffed by officers (Helm = command; Ops = engineer) usually but occasionally by chief petty officers (O'Brien, DiFalco - although she was technically navigation rather than ops).

Engineering is a bit different because you have a lot of crewman carrying out standard maintenance and repairs at all times, supervised by officers or senior non-coms. On a ship the size of Voyager I can't imagine that they can have much more than half a dozen officers to supervise the various shifts and key positions overall. Vorik most likely filled the role of assistant chief engineer when he was on duty. Carey, as a more senior officer would be in charge of shifts when Torres wasn't on duty, which is why we rarely see him, with a different ensign or CPO as his number two.
I figured he was an Ensign because while he had textbook knowledge of Engineering and acted all his tests, he lacked the actual field experance. He hadn't earned a rank higher than Ensign yet.

Didn't nuKirk & nuUhura eran their rank in the field?
We don't know what Kirk did at the Academy to graduate as a Lt. but it must of required field experance due to his ambition.
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Old September 3 2010, 08:23 PM   #30
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Re: That Vulcan in Engineering?

Yeah, Vorik didn't usually take much initiative. And simply because he was an ensign and would outrank all enlisted crew doesn't tell us his relationship vis-á-vis other engineering officers. It seemed there were quite a few officers there.

The best — only one that I recall — counterexample is in DS9: Starship Down, in which the engineering staff consisted entirely of enlisted technicians, not even true engineers. Worf was the only officer to direct them (and that was because he was the only officer stuck down there).


And Kim's rank of ensign was strange. He was explicitly referred to as a "senior officer" and all Ops people reported directly to him. That was highly unusual, I suspect. I can't believe that on a newly commisioned officer's first duty would be to run Ops on a significant vessel.

Harry acquitted himself so well, and so many officers died, that I have trouble accepting Janeway's rationale for never promoting him. How would it hurt to make him a lieutenant? Obviously she couldn't promote everyone to commander, but why not upgrade Kim?
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