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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old September 1 2010, 03:03 AM   #31
SonsofSoong2338
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Praxius wrote: View Post
SonsofSoong2338 wrote: View Post
Here is an interesting scenario to ponder....In the episode "measure of a man", Picard and Data go all out to defend the idea that an android has rights and ought to be treated like any human with regards to the law. If that is so, then how do we explain what happened to Lore?

Lore committed heinous crimes and was captured by Data. He was incapacited, and instead of arresting him and putting him on trial for his multiple counts of conspiracy and murder, the Enterprise crew just deactivate him and, presumably, disassemble him. Is this a terrible example of hypocrisy on the part of Picard and Data? Are androids only people so long as they are good?
Nope.... Data and Picard were responsible for re-activating him and unleashing him on the galaxy..... he attempted to kill the entire Enterprise crew, he wiped out an entire colony, both by using the Crystal Entity, he killed his creator/father, he took over Borg for his own personal gains of enslaving organics and conducted tests on borg and humans for his own sick amusement.

Considering that there's no real known way of restraining an android or keeping them behind a force field ala a prison due to their strength and abilities to use components from their body to manipulate technology to their advantage (thus escape) and he has continually shown that he doesn't give two craps about society, laws, morals, etc..... the only logical course of action was to deactivate him and disassemble him..... which wouldn't be much different from some lunatic attempting to kill a bunch of people or torturing them and the only option was to put a sniper bullet between their eyes since they would never surrender.

Actually considering they said they only deactivated him and disassembled him, he's not actually dead, since he could always be put back together and turned back on.

The simplest answer is that you'd never be able to put him on trial or send him off to jail, let alone send him to some penal colony in New Zealand to dig ditches, without him either trying to escape or attempting to kill anybody near him.

Added:

The Argument that Data was in the wrong and he violated his rights is a bit weak considering when you break the law, you lose certain rights..... Lore was a mass murderer and there was no way to reason, let alone confine him in any means of punishment that would ensure the security of anybody near him or give justice to his victims.

It seems a tad screwed up to play Lore as the Victim compared to all the things he did and his very last physical action was to attempt to kill Data.... Data did exactly what was necessary and logical based on the given situation and could be argued his actions were in self defence of not just himself but everyone else.

Chances are, the logical course of action was to deactivate him and disassemble him for the time being until they know of a way to properly confine him in a safe manner and find a proper punishment for his crimes.
Picard argued in "measure of a man" that there were "other races with super strength..." when Riker tried to use that as a way of showing Data was not a person. So, the idea that it was okay to put him down because he couldn't be imprisoned is not sound. They may have come to the conclusion that the only viable punishment was to disassemble him, but they never even bothered to do that. I'm not saying that Lore is the victim--far from it--but how many other instances in startrek have we seen of a persons rights being held above all else? They love that stuff...accept apparently in this case.
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Old September 1 2010, 03:07 AM   #32
SonsofSoong2338
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Timo wrote: View Post
Why would the law have something to say about Lore's disassembly? Shouldn't what happens to Lore's body be his business, and only his?

If Lore agreed to being disassembled, legal concerns probably wouldn't arise. For a Soongian android, the difference between assembled and disassembled approximates the difference between standing and seated for a human. Except that a human might find it uncomfortable or even dangerous to remain seated for years at an end, while an android would be only minimally inconvenienced.

Essentially, it's a case of two people (androids) having a heated difference of opinion (killing a few people and destroying property left and right), and one tells the other to "Sit DOWN!" ("Let me disassemble you for the greater good, brother"), to which the other grudgingly agrees. No court would prosecute that as a case of illegal threat or depriving of freedom or whatnot.

Besides, Starfleet seems to be the only law-enforcing entity anywhere in the UFP. And Starfleet officers have frequently demonstrated their mandate for killing wrongdoers. Merely putting one on indefinite hold should not raise eyebrows, even on Vulcan...

Timo Saloniemi
Considering that androids are shown to be conscious creatures, I don't think the difference between assembled and disassembled can be related to sitting and standing. I would rather equate it to alive or dead. A disassembled, non-functioning android is as good as dead. We should all consider this....If Lore had been a human being, Data would never have done what he did to him. End of story.
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Old September 1 2010, 03:08 AM   #33
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

SonsofSoong2338 wrote: View Post
The Federation doesn't have the death penalty
Yes it does. Talos IV.

and, lets face it, being disassembled indefinitely is the same thing as death.
No, because disassembly can be followed by re-assembly. If Lore had been vaporized by a phaser, then that would be death. But he was taken apart, nothing more; thus he could theoretically be put back together again.

But as I said, Lore was dangerous. An immediate menace. Disassembling him was, in effect, self defense. They could not take the chance that Lore would escape again. Keeping him disassembled serves the greater good.
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Old September 1 2010, 03:11 AM   #34
SonsofSoong2338
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Takeru wrote: View Post
od0_ital wrote: View Post
In 'Birthright, Part One', Picard told Data that he was a culture of one. While not quite true - B4, Lore, Julianna Tainer, Lal were also a part of the culture created by Soong - its close enough.

And since the Federation respects each culture's laws & customs, when Data passed judgment on the only other known member of the culture, it was legal.
And who gave Data the right to decide what his cultures laws and customs were? Lore's opinion should count as much as Data's if not more, considering the fact that he was built first and established Soong android culture long before Data was activated for the first time.

What Data did was wrong, plain and simple. He fought for his rights to not be treated like a thing and then he deactivates Lore just like that ... what a load of crap. Yes, Lore was dangerous and he could have escaped had they just put him in a cell ... so what? If you lock a criminal up there's always the chance he or she will escape, but I don't see the federation putting people into stasis indefinitely or outright killing them, they send their criminals to an extended vacation in New Zealand instead.
My thoughts precisely. Thank you=). We can still love a character even if they are flawed, and Data wasn't perfect.
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Old September 1 2010, 03:15 AM   #35
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

If a Federation prison could possibly hold Lore, then you might have a case. But I think we all know by now that Lore could escape from pretty much any prison. There aren't many sentient beings out there with the strength, speed and intelligence to match Lore or Data. If they go rogue, extreme measures will always be necessary.

And like I said, Lore can be put back together again. He is not dead, just 'sleeping'.
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Old September 1 2010, 03:24 AM   #36
SonsofSoong2338
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

I think everyone has made a lot of really good points to answer my question. One thing about the Federation I think we can all agree on is that its pretty ambiguous. Sometimes it's like Starfleet can do whatever it wants, then suddenly their "hands are tied."

I'm not arguing that Lore shouldn't have been disassembled. I'm arguing that he was disassembled without a fair trial. They should have at least done it just to keep their legal code sound. After all, it's not like he would have been found innocent! Even in the face of overwhelming evidence of guilt, a person should still get a trial...even if it is only 10 minutes. The crazy thing was that Data was setting a very bad precedent that might one day have been applied to him.....unilateral disassembly.
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Old September 1 2010, 04:51 AM   #37
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

SonsofSoong2338 wrote: View Post
If Lore had been a human being, Data would never have done what he did to him. End of story.
I seem to remember a certain art collector that Data was attempting to "deactivate."

In disassembling Lore, Data (and the Federation) were simply returning him to the state in which he was found.

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Old September 1 2010, 04:56 AM   #38
Tom Riley
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

As someone did previously point out here, we have no idea what happened to Lore after the episode was over. He could have been deactivated and disassembled pending an official hearing by the Federation Council or something like that, they never said what was to happen or even if the disassembly was permanent.
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Old September 1 2010, 03:16 PM   #39
Praxius
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

DonIago wrote: View Post
If you apply the same principles to Lore that were applied to Data, it's possible he would be considered property and then would be in their jurisdiction.
But then if Data wasn't the property of Starfleet, then neither was Lore.

I don't think there's any legal grounds establishing Data as Lore's next of kin in any case. Not to say an argument couldn't be made, but we're talking legalities.
Considering the topic is about Lore's rights and what was legal and illegal (as noted in the topic header) of course we're talking legalities.... they're relevant to the debate.

Soong may not have intended for Lore to be active, but I'm not sure that anyone has the right to summarily deactivate him either, provided they don't intend to give him a fair hearing at some point.
And how do you propose they give him a fair hearing without risking the lives of everyone around him and having the very probable chance of him escaping?

I'm forced to wonder whether people would apply the same arguments if Lore hadn't exhibited anti-social behavior.
Anti-Social?

I think he was a bit more extreme then that..... if he didn't wipe out an entire colony, if he didn't attempt to kill the entire Enterprise crew, if he didn't murder his father, if he didn't attempt to manipulate and control the Borg, if he didn't conduct brutal experiments on them, if he didn't violate Data's freedom and his mind by controlling him with the emotion chip, if he didn't abduct Picard and the Enterprise crew, if he didn't conduct more brutal experiments on his crew ala Geordi...... I doubt anybody would see justification for deactivating him in the first place and we wouldn't be having this discussion.



SonsofSoong2338 wrote: View Post
Picard argued in "measure of a man" that there were "other races with super strength..." when Riker tried to use that as a way of showing Data was not a person. So, the idea that it was okay to put him down because he couldn't be imprisoned is not sound. They may have come to the conclusion that the only viable punishment was to disassemble him, but they never even bothered to do that. I'm not saying that Lore is the victim--far from it--but how many other instances in startrek have we seen of a persons rights being held above all else? They love that stuff...accept apparently in this case.
I sum it up as Data, with his millions of calculations a second brain, already thought of all the alternatives, probably concluded there was no logical way of restraining him properly, no logical way of punishing him, processed all the laws, all the means of dealing with him through normal practices, and his final conclusion was the only one.

And as another mentioned, while Data and other Androids have earned certain rights within the Federation, They are not Human and they are not from Earth, thus Human/Earth laws do not exactly apply..... he was the first of his culture, and therefore the only logical choice for determining what is done within his own society/culture towards those who commit serious crimes such as what Lore did.

Besides, while the Federation has dealt with other alien species that possess considerable strength, this situation is similar to how one tries to arrest, restrain and punish a Q.

In other words, it's not easily done..... until one figures out how.... deactivate him.

Added:

Let's also not forget that Lore not only escaped drifting in space, he also had his own personal teleportation device in his body, and who knows what other modifications he made to his body..... trying to hold him for any extended period of time against his will would have been futile, short of deactivating him.

Last edited by Praxius; September 1 2010 at 03:28 PM.
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Old September 1 2010, 03:35 PM   #40
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Praxius wrote: View Post
But then if Data wasn't the property of Starfleet, then neither was Lore.
That doesn't follow. Data, specifically, was deemed by a Starfleet hearing to not be property. Lore was not.
The rights extended to Data on that occasion do not automatically pass on to other androids or computer systems.

However, I would like to think that he got a fair trial at some point. I'd also strongly argue that he is not unimprisonable (is that word?), just because he's clever/strong/fast. He's just as physically capable as Data, who had been previously imprisoned by a mere collector with a forcefield and strong door. Lore would have no chance of escape up against Starfleet's finest prisons, and that's even assuming they gave him his body.
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Old September 1 2010, 03:51 PM   #41
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

^Agreed. In fact, the point that Soong didn't apparently consider Lore to be a "finished model" would lend credence to the argument that Lore is property rather than a person.
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Old September 1 2010, 03:56 PM   #42
SonsofSoong2338
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

T'Girl wrote: View Post
SonsofSoong2338 wrote: View Post
If Lore had been a human being, Data would never have done what he did to him. End of story.
I seem to remember a certain art collector that Data was attempting to "deactivate."

In disassembling Lore, Data (and the Federation) were simply returning him to the state in which he was found.


Several people have noted that Lore was found disassembled, and have tried to use this as some justification for doing it again. Remember when the Enterprise crew found those 20th century humans frozen on that pod thing. Now, they brought them back, but does that mean they would have to right to knock them out and freeze them again? Certainly not! That's like saying every parent has the right to kill their kid because they gave them life. Also, Data was found disassembled and was put back together by starfleet. Do they have the right to take him apart again as soon as he starts acting up? Perhaps...after a fair trial.
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Old September 1 2010, 06:39 PM   #43
Praxius
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

SonsofSoong2338 wrote: View Post
Several people have noted that Lore was found disassembled, and have tried to use this as some justification for doing it again. Remember when the Enterprise crew found those 20th century humans frozen on that pod thing. Now, they brought them back, but does that mean they would have to right to knock them out and freeze them again?
I would have, they were friggin annoying.... damn hicks

Certainly not! That's like saying every parent has the right to kill their kid because they gave them life.
Didn't your mother or father ever say "I brought you into this world, I can take you out!!"??
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Old September 1 2010, 09:04 PM   #44
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Praxius wrote: View Post
Let's also not forget that Lore not only escaped drifting in space, he also had his own personal teleportation device in his body, and who knows what other modifications he made to his body..... trying to hold him for any extended period of time against his will would have been futile, short of deactivating him.
Lore did not have a transporter built into him. Despite the bullshit presented in Nemesis such a device pretty much violates everything we know, and should know, about how the transporters work. Lore simply had a trasponder built in him to activate the transporter on his ship.

I could also point out that "technically" Data "killing" Lore wasn't murder considering, for the most part it was a "war." Between Picard's Team and Lore's team of Borg. Killing someone to prevent a galactic-wide event of murder and suffering isn't murder.

It would have been murder if, for example, someone found Hitler and but a bullet in his head. You killed a genocidist. Not a bad thing.
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Old September 1 2010, 09:30 PM   #45
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Data also didn't kill Lore because at that point Lore could be reactivated. Essentially Lore was put in suspended animation.
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