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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 31 2010, 05:19 PM   #16
DGCatAniSiri
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Lore was deactivated and disassembled. They'd found him like that as well. Data didn't say 'disassembled to his component parts,' just disassembled. It could just be that he intended to have Lore kept offline until someone else understood positronic brains and would be able to help to make him more sane (whether that would even be possible, your guess is as good as mine).

Either way, though, IF Data did 'kill' Lore, I believe the Federation would accept it, and not just for reasons of 'Data's the only android we've declared sentient.' Remember Worf killed Duras under Klingon law and received no punishment for the deed. I believe that Data would have similar protection under Federation law, even if he had no personal laws for his 'species' - when you're a species of one, you don't really make laws, just personal judgment calls. Not to mention, he IS Lore's next of kin, so he'd be the only one in a position to complain about Lore's treatment in the first place.

Here's another question to ponder -- after Data (presumably) disassembles Lore, where did Lore go? Did Data keep his parts in storage on the Enterprise-D, and if so, did Lore's parts survive the crash in Generations?
One of the TNG novels, 'Immortal Coil,' said that Data kept the 'bodies' of Lore, Lal, and a few prototypes he'd discovered in a sort of 'family plot' in one of the Enterprise science labs, and that they'd survived the crash of the D and were moved to the E. I don't know if any other novel has worked with this fact, or what would have happened to it after his death, though.
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Old August 31 2010, 05:48 PM   #17
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Considering Lore went all "Lex Luthor" and decided to try and start a program to take over the Federation with his own group of Borg I'm guessing a "death penalty" carried out on-site by ranking SF officer wouldn't be thought over too much.
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Old August 31 2010, 05:53 PM   #18
Takeru
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
Remember Worf killed Duras under Klingon law and received no punishment for the deed.
But only because he did it on a klingon ship and the klingons were fine with it, had he killed Duras on the Enterprise it would have been murder, klingon laws wouldn't have applied.
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Old August 31 2010, 06:01 PM   #19
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Didn't the Federation do away with the death penalty in Kirk's time? If I remember correctly, it only existed for travelling to Talos IV, and then only upon sentencing by a court martial. I cannot believe this same Federation would look kindly on the anti-Lex Luthor argument for extrajudicial execution. (It is noteworthy that no one ever tried that on Luthor, either.)

Nor can I believe that Data has been given free reign to abrogate the rights of any other Soong-type androids as some kind of "Soongian emperor." Unless he has been recognized as the sovereign of a state by the Federation, he has no more legal right to commit violence against any other Soong-type android than I do.
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Old August 31 2010, 06:56 PM   #20
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

I tend to agree with this.

Also "Nobody's complaining" would seem like a weak reason not to investigate a potential crime.
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Old August 31 2010, 07:59 PM   #21
DGCatAniSiri
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Takeru wrote: View Post
DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
Remember Worf killed Duras under Klingon law and received no punishment for the deed.
But only because he did it on a klingon ship and the klingons were fine with it, had he killed Duras on the Enterprise it would have been murder, klingon laws wouldn't have applied.
Data wasn't on the Enterprise either. He was on the Borg planet, and they were in the process of a revolt and would probably have killed Lore themselves if they'd gotten their hands on him.
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Old August 31 2010, 08:34 PM   #22
doubleohfive
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Takeru wrote: View Post
DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
Remember Worf killed Duras under Klingon law and received no punishment for the deed.
But only because he did it on a klingon ship and the klingons were fine with it, had he killed Duras on the Enterprise it would have been murder, klingon laws wouldn't have applied.
I'm pretty sure Picard rips Worf to shreds at the end of the episode and tells him "a reprimand will appear on [Worf's] permanent record."

Granted, it's not a prison sentence or anything, but to say Worf received "no punishment" is inaccurate.

As for Lore, this was an android who, every time Data encountered him, had proven he was not interested in peaceful co-existence. Lore tried to feed the Enterprise to the Crystalline Entity, he later murdered Dr. Nonnian Soong, and then as others mentioned, led a revolt with the Borg, arguably Starfleet's greatest threat. Putting morality aside for the moment, if you have the option to turn off a crazy-ass killing machine, you take it. Then you talk about what to do about him.
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Old August 31 2010, 08:58 PM   #23
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

SonsofSoong2338 wrote: View Post
Here is an interesting scenario to ponder....In the episode "measure of a man", Picard and Data go all out to defend the idea that an android has rights and ought to be treated like any human with regards to the law. If that is so, then how do we explain what happened to Lore?

Lore committed heinous crimes and was captured by Data. He was incapacited, and instead of arresting him and putting him on trial for his multiple counts of conspiracy and murder, the Enterprise crew just deactivate him and, presumably, disassemble him. Is this a terrible example of hypocrisy on the part of Picard and Data? Are androids only people so long as they are good?
Nope.... Data and Picard were responsible for re-activating him and unleashing him on the galaxy..... he attempted to kill the entire Enterprise crew, he wiped out an entire colony, both by using the Crystal Entity, he killed his creator/father, he took over Borg for his own personal gains of enslaving organics and conducted tests on borg and humans for his own sick amusement.

Considering that there's no real known way of restraining an android or keeping them behind a force field ala a prison due to their strength and abilities to use components from their body to manipulate technology to their advantage (thus escape) and he has continually shown that he doesn't give two craps about society, laws, morals, etc..... the only logical course of action was to deactivate him and disassemble him..... which wouldn't be much different from some lunatic attempting to kill a bunch of people or torturing them and the only option was to put a sniper bullet between their eyes since they would never surrender.

Actually considering they said they only deactivated him and disassembled him, he's not actually dead, since he could always be put back together and turned back on.

The simplest answer is that you'd never be able to put him on trial or send him off to jail, let alone send him to some penal colony in New Zealand to dig ditches, without him either trying to escape or attempting to kill anybody near him.

Added:

The Argument that Data was in the wrong and he violated his rights is a bit weak considering when you break the law, you lose certain rights..... Lore was a mass murderer and there was no way to reason, let alone confine him in any means of punishment that would ensure the security of anybody near him or give justice to his victims.

It seems a tad screwed up to play Lore as the Victim compared to all the things he did and his very last physical action was to attempt to kill Data.... Data did exactly what was necessary and logical based on the given situation and could be argued his actions were in self defence of not just himself but everyone else.

Chances are, the logical course of action was to deactivate him and disassemble him for the time being until they know of a way to properly confine him in a safe manner and find a proper punishment for his crimes.
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Old August 31 2010, 09:11 PM   #24
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

DonIago wrote: View Post
I tend to agree with this.

Also "Nobody's complaining" would seem like a weak reason not to investigate a potential crime.
Simply put, Lore wasn't a Federation citizen, thus out of their jurisdiction..... he was created by a Fed Citizen, but as another member mentioned, Data was his next of Kin thus legally allowed to decide what happens..... also, as another member mentioned, Soong took him apart and had no intention of him being reactivated in the first place.

To put it bluntly, Lore was an accident.
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Old August 31 2010, 09:15 PM   #25
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Praxius wrote: View Post
SonsofSoong2338 wrote: View Post
Here is an interesting scenario to ponder....In the episode "measure of a man", Picard and Data go all out to defend the idea that an android has rights and ought to be treated like any human with regards to the law. If that is so, then how do we explain what happened to Lore?

Lore committed heinous crimes and was captured by Data. He was incapacited, and instead of arresting him and putting him on trial for his multiple counts of conspiracy and murder, the Enterprise crew just deactivate him and, presumably, disassemble him. Is this a terrible example of hypocrisy on the part of Picard and Data? Are androids only people so long as they are good?
Nope.... Data and Picard were responsible for re-activating him and unleashing him on the galaxy..... he attempted to kill the entire Enterprise crew, he wiped out an entire colony, both by using the Crystal Entity, he killed his creator/father, he took over Borg for his own personal gains of enslaving organics and conducted tests on borg and humans for his own sick amusement.

Considering that there's no real known way of restraining an android or keeping them behind a force field ala a prison due to their strength and abilities to use components from their body to manipulate technology to their advantage (thus escape) and he has continually shown that he doesn't give two craps about society, laws, morals, etc..... the only logical course of action was to deactivate him and disassemble him..... which wouldn't be much different from some lunatic attempting to kill a bunch of people or torturing them and the only option was to put a sniper bullet between their eyes since they would never surrender.

Actually considering they said they only deactivated him and disassembled him, he's not actually dead, since he could always be put back together and turned back on.

The simplest answer is that you'd never be able to put him on trial or send him off to jail, let alone send him to some penal colony in New Zealand to dig ditches, without him either trying to escape or attempting to kill anybody near him.

Added:

The Argument that Data was in the wrong and he violated his rights is a bit weak considering when you break the law, you lose certain rights..... Lore was a mass murderer and there was no way to reason, let alone confine him in any means of punishment that would ensure the security of anybody near him or give justice to his victims.

It seems a tad screwed up to play Lore as the Victim compared to all the things he did and his very last physical action was to attempt to kill Data.... Data did exactly what was necessary and logical based on the given situation and could be argued his actions were in self defence of not just himself but everyone else.

Chances are, the logical course of action was to deactivate him and disassemble him for the time being until they know of a way to properly confine him in a safe manner and find a proper punishment for his crimes.
Couldn't have said it any better myself.
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Old August 31 2010, 09:17 PM   #26
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Lore, like Data, possesses superhuman strength and impressive processing speed. Disassembling him might be an effective means of keeping him "in irons" as it were. Maybe if they wanted to maintain his rights, they could keep his head activated so that he was conscious.
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Old August 31 2010, 11:20 PM   #27
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Or perhaps they did reassemble him to face some sort of hearing/trial at some point. We don't have any evidence either way.
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Old August 31 2010, 11:23 PM   #28
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Praxius wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I tend to agree with this.

Also "Nobody's complaining" would seem like a weak reason not to investigate a potential crime.
Simply put, Lore wasn't a Federation citizen, thus out of their jurisdiction..... he was created by a Fed Citizen, but as another member mentioned, Data was his next of Kin thus legally allowed to decide what happens..... also, as another member mentioned, Soong took him apart and had no intention of him being reactivated in the first place.

To put it bluntly, Lore was an accident.
If you apply the same principles to Lore that were applied to Data, it's possible he would be considered property and then would be in their jurisdiction.

I don't think there's any legal grounds establishing Data as Lore's next of kin in any case. Not to say an argument couldn't be made, but we're talking legalities.

Soong may not have intended for Lore to be active, but I'm not sure that anyone has the right to summarily deactivate him either, provided they don't intend to give him a fair hearing at some point.

I'm forced to wonder whether people would apply the same arguments if Lore hadn't exhibited anti-social behavior.
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Old September 1 2010, 02:56 AM   #29
SonsofSoong2338
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

od0_ital wrote: View Post
In 'Birthright, Part One', Picard told Data that he was a culture of one. While not quite true - B4, Lore, Julianna Tainer, Lal were also a part of the culture created by Soong - its close enough.

And since the Federation respects each culture's laws & customs, when Data passed judgment on the only other known member of the culture, it was legal.
Ooh...that is a good point. It's not like Lore was a member of Starfleet or some Federation race. Data very well may have had the final say.
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Old September 1 2010, 02:58 AM   #30
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Delta1 wrote: View Post
Didn't the Federation do away with the death penalty in Kirk's time? If I remember correctly, it only existed for travelling to Talos IV, and then only upon sentencing by a court martial. I cannot believe this same Federation would look kindly on the anti-Lex Luthor argument for extrajudicial execution. (It is noteworthy that no one ever tried that on Luthor, either.)

Nor can I believe that Data has been given free reign to abrogate the rights of any other Soong-type androids as some kind of "Soongian emperor." Unless he has been recognized as the sovereign of a state by the Federation, he has no more legal right to commit violence against any other Soong-type android than I do.

I have to agree. The Federation doesn't have the death penalty and, lets face it, being disassembled indefinitely is the same thing as death. Plus we all have to remember that Lore was INCAPACITATED. Data already had him right where he wanted him, and he chose to shut him down rather than arrest him.
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