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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 31 2010, 04:08 AM   #1
SonsofSoong2338
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Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Here is an interesting scenario to ponder....In the episode "measure of a man", Picard and Data go all out to defend the idea that an android has rights and ought to be treated like any human with regards to the law. If that is so, then how do we explain what happened to Lore?

Lore committed heinous crimes and was captured by Data. He was incapacited, and instead of arresting him and putting him on trial for his multiple counts of conspiracy and murder, the Enterprise crew just deactivate him and, presumably, disassemble him. Is this a terrible example of hypocrisy on the part of Picard and Data? Are androids only people so long as they are good?
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Old August 31 2010, 04:40 AM   #2
DonIago
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

You said it youself, they -presumably- disassemble him.

It's just as presumable that they reactivated him and he was found criminally insane and locked away in a dark hole somewhere.
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Old August 31 2010, 04:45 AM   #3
SonsofSoong2338
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

DonIago wrote: View Post
You said it youself, they -presumably- disassemble him.

It's just as presumable that they reactivated him and he was found criminally insane and locked away in a dark hole somewhere.
I don't know. I think my "presumption" is a lot more likely than yours. Anyway, this is a philosophical question about legal rights.
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Old August 31 2010, 04:49 AM   #4
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Assuming Data did unilaterally disassemble Lore, then sure, I'd be willing to make the argument that Lore's rights were violated. Though I seem to recall that the ruling in Data's case applied explicitly to him, not necessarily all Soong-type androids. Consequently it's possible Lore wouldn't be explicitly entitled to the same rights. Which is a cheap legal stunt, but that's how the system works.
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Old August 31 2010, 07:13 AM   #5
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

In 'Birthright, Part One', Picard told Data that he was a culture of one. While not quite true - B4, Lore, Julianna Tainer, Lal were also a part of the culture created by Soong - its close enough.

And since the Federation respects each culture's laws & customs, when Data passed judgment on the only other known member of the culture, it was legal.
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Old August 31 2010, 07:22 AM   #6
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Here's another question to ponder -- after Data (presumably) disassembles Lore, where did Lore go? Did Data keep his parts in storage on the Enterprise-D, and if so, did Lore's parts survive the crash in Generations?
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Old August 31 2010, 07:45 AM   #7
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Perhaps they were scared that he might escape. Not really just in i nation of laws, but it would make sense.
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Old August 31 2010, 07:49 AM   #8
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Why would the law have something to say about Lore's disassembly? Shouldn't what happens to Lore's body be his business, and only his?

If Lore agreed to being disassembled, legal concerns probably wouldn't arise. For a Soongian android, the difference between assembled and disassembled approximates the difference between standing and seated for a human. Except that a human might find it uncomfortable or even dangerous to remain seated for years at an end, while an android would be only minimally inconvenienced.

Essentially, it's a case of two people (androids) having a heated difference of opinion (killing a few people and destroying property left and right), and one tells the other to "Sit DOWN!" ("Let me disassemble you for the greater good, brother"), to which the other grudgingly agrees. No court would prosecute that as a case of illegal threat or depriving of freedom or whatnot.

Besides, Starfleet seems to be the only law-enforcing entity anywhere in the UFP. And Starfleet officers have frequently demonstrated their mandate for killing wrongdoers. Merely putting one on indefinite hold should not raise eyebrows, even on Vulcan...

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Old August 31 2010, 10:38 AM   #9
Takeru
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

od0_ital wrote: View Post
In 'Birthright, Part One', Picard told Data that he was a culture of one. While not quite true - B4, Lore, Julianna Tainer, Lal were also a part of the culture created by Soong - its close enough.

And since the Federation respects each culture's laws & customs, when Data passed judgment on the only other known member of the culture, it was legal.
And who gave Data the right to decide what his cultures laws and customs were? Lore's opinion should count as much as Data's if not more, considering the fact that he was built first and established Soong android culture long before Data was activated for the first time.

What Data did was wrong, plain and simple. He fought for his rights to not be treated like a thing and then he deactivates Lore just like that ... what a load of crap. Yes, Lore was dangerous and he could have escaped had they just put him in a cell ... so what? If you lock a criminal up there's always the chance he or she will escape, but I don't see the federation putting people into stasis indefinitely or outright killing them, they send their criminals to an extended vacation in New Zealand instead.
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Old August 31 2010, 11:32 AM   #10
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Yea, and I've always thought Lore got screwed over. Put him on trial, and punish him, but don't disassemble him to some android purgatory. If nothing else give him the Khan treatment.
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Old August 31 2010, 12:09 PM   #11
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Takeru wrote: View Post
od0_ital wrote: View Post
In 'Birthright, Part One', Picard told Data that he was a culture of one. While not quite true - B4, Lore, Julianna Tainer, Lal were also a part of the culture created by Soong - its close enough.

And since the Federation respects each culture's laws & customs, when Data passed judgment on the only other known member of the culture, it was legal.
And who gave Data the right to decide what his cultures laws and customs were? Lore's opinion should count as much as Data's if not more, considering the fact that he was built first and established Soong android culture long before Data was activated for the first time.

What Data did was wrong, plain and simple. He fought for his rights to not be treated like a thing and then he deactivates Lore just like that ... what a load of crap. Yes, Lore was dangerous and he could have escaped had they just put him in a cell ... so what? If you lock a criminal up there's always the chance he or she will escape, but I don't see the federation putting people into stasis indefinitely or outright killing them, they send their criminals to an extended vacation in New Zealand instead.
Data chooses to withhold Juliana's true identity from her. Data chooses to construct Lal, & reassemble Lore & B4. He chooses to deactivate Lore. He chooses to sacrifice his own life. Sounds to me like Data is the king of the Android culture

It's an empire. Data won it. Therefore Data makes the policies. That's how empire's work, & clearly a violation of the prime directive to place upon them human or Federation standards or rules. Not for them to interfere in those internal affairs

Last edited by Mojochi; September 1 2010 at 06:09 AM. Reason: error
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Old August 31 2010, 12:16 PM   #12
Timo
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

...Admittedly, Data is also a UFP citizen and a Starfleet officer.

But UFP citizens have significant leeway, often out of cultural reasons: the UFP culture isn't monobloc, and seems to subject different people to different legal obligations and limitations.

And Starfleet officers have even greater leeway, frequently deciding on issues of life and death without consulting their superiors or peers or referring to precedent.

All in all, it would be highly atypical for any of our heroes to hesitate in applying justice or other problem-solving methods on enemies of the UFP, or even on their personal enemies. Apparently, the right for extended self-defense is the only one that applies universally to all UFP species and citizens...

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Old August 31 2010, 04:12 PM   #13
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Timo wrote: View Post
For a Soongian android, the difference between assembled and disassembled approximates the difference between standing and seated for a human. Except that a human might find it uncomfortable or even dangerous to remain seated for years at an end, while an android would be only minimally inconvenienced.
Except that a human sitting down can -choose- to stand up. A disassembled android has had that choice taken away, provided they're not being reassembled and asked their opinion at regular intervals.
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Old August 31 2010, 04:31 PM   #14
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Lore was clearly extremely dangerous. Why shouldn't he be disassembled?
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Old August 31 2010, 05:16 PM   #15
zar
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Re: Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Takeru wrote: View Post
od0_ital wrote: View Post
In 'Birthright, Part One', Picard told Data that he was a culture of one. While not quite true - B4, Lore, Julianna Tainer, Lal were also a part of the culture created by Soong - its close enough.

And since the Federation respects each culture's laws & customs, when Data passed judgment on the only other known member of the culture, it was legal.
And who gave Data the right to decide what his cultures laws and customs were? Lore's opinion should count as much as Data's if not more, considering the fact that he was built first and established Soong android culture long before Data was activated for the first time.

What Data did was wrong, plain and simple. He fought for his rights to not be treated like a thing and then he deactivates Lore just like that ... what a load of crap. Yes, Lore was dangerous and he could have escaped had they just put him in a cell ... so what? If you lock a criminal up there's always the chance he or she will escape, but I don't see the federation putting people into stasis indefinitely or outright killing them, they send their criminals to an extended vacation in New Zealand instead.

You're forgetting the real leader of the Soong society... Dr. Soong. Lore was a mistake, and Soong didn't want him to be active.
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