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Old August 27 2010, 10:02 PM   #31
Silvercrest
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

FluffyUnbound wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Zachary Smith wrote: View Post
and unable to "move on" in a parallel to the idea held by some that brain-dead person is not "really dead" until the body stops functioning also.
But in a very real sense, these zombies are exactly that. Their bodies HAVE stopped functioning.

A brain-dead person is still alive, because their bodies - brain included - are. There is no real such thing as "brain dead" and still being alive, because if the brain IS dead, it cannot sustain the body, and thus the body will die.

I admit my views on this are colored by my faith. The soul is not permanently attached to the body - somebody dies, they go to either Heaven or Hell, end of story. I would like to think that when we see these zombies in a movie, that still applies. It's not like somebody's attacked/bitten, then all they want to do is go rrarrarrararrr and eat brainz. There is no consciousness OR soul in the zombie. The person dies, they go to one place or the other, and that's it - a zombie is not controlled by anything at all, just like my example of a leaf floating around. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Once we bring spirituality and the supernatural into it, it's much easier to explain zombies by saying the reverse:

That the body has died [taking the higher functions of the brain with it] but the "soul" is somehow stuck and can't leave, and is carrying the body around like a puppet or marionette.

And since these are damned souls we're talking about, they aren't in good moods.
What, you're automatically condemned to hell because you got bitten by a zombie through no fault of your own? (In some cases, anyway.) I don't believe that any more than I believe a gypsy can arbitrarily send you to hell for eternity for refusing to extend her loan.

It might be better to suggest that the real soul has moved on to the afterlife, and the reanimation of the body has left it open to possession by an evil spirit of some kind, one that gives it enough volition to walk around and munch brains. Maybe even a spirit that knows enough about the host-body to mimic some of its habits in life.
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Old August 27 2010, 10:42 PM   #32
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

These are Horror Movies. If one wants to include the soul in the equation, it would be much more horrible to think an innocent person is tethered to these monsters and must uncontrollably take part in the violence, death and cannibalism.

In Day Of The Dead, one of the scientists experimented on a Zombie-- "Bubba" or something, his name was-- and found evidence of consciousness. I'm not sure if this was ever followed up. I must catch up on the Romero movies.
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Old August 27 2010, 10:55 PM   #33
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
FluffyUnbound wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

But in a very real sense, these zombies are exactly that. Their bodies HAVE stopped functioning.

A brain-dead person is still alive, because their bodies - brain included - are. There is no real such thing as "brain dead" and still being alive, because if the brain IS dead, it cannot sustain the body, and thus the body will die.

I admit my views on this are colored by my faith. The soul is not permanently attached to the body - somebody dies, they go to either Heaven or Hell, end of story. I would like to think that when we see these zombies in a movie, that still applies. It's not like somebody's attacked/bitten, then all they want to do is go rrarrarrararrr and eat brainz. There is no consciousness OR soul in the zombie. The person dies, they go to one place or the other, and that's it - a zombie is not controlled by anything at all, just like my example of a leaf floating around. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Once we bring spirituality and the supernatural into it, it's much easier to explain zombies by saying the reverse:

That the body has died [taking the higher functions of the brain with it] but the "soul" is somehow stuck and can't leave, and is carrying the body around like a puppet or marionette.

And since these are damned souls we're talking about, they aren't in good moods.
What, you're automatically condemned to hell because you got bitten by a zombie through no fault of your own? (In some cases, anyway.) I don't believe that any more than I believe a gypsy can arbitrarily send you to hell for eternity for refusing to extend her loan.

It might be better to suggest that the real soul has moved on to the afterlife, and the reanimation of the body has left it open to possession by an evil spirit of some kind, one that gives it enough volition to walk around and munch brains. Maybe even a spirit that knows enough about the host-body to mimic some of its habits in life.
I think it may be a bit like with Spike, even before he got his soul back. Certain habits and desires were so fiercely imprinted, some vestige just kept on in whatever was left from them.

I compare movie zombies to an old Gyro Gearloose cartoon. In it, he goes outside to have a picnic, and is bothered by ants. So he builds a raised table to sit on, but the ants climb the legs. He sticky-glues the legs, and the ants are stuck, but now mosquitoes bother him. He builds an enclosed screen, but it begins to rain. He puts four walls and a solid roof up and beats them all--only to discover that he has defeated the entire purpose of going outside to enjoy things. With zombies, too much power, cunning and wherewithal just makes them rotten-looking bandits with a skin problem and a nasty diet. Keep em' slow and stupid. If they are aware enough to figure out a doggie door--then they are not zombies.

And one more thing? Ditch the 'they won't eat each other' bull. Every other species will, if hungry enough, eat their own, and these things are never NOT hungry.
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Old August 27 2010, 11:05 PM   #34
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

Gojirob wrote: View Post
And one more thing? Ditch the 'they won't eat each other' bull. Every other species will, if hungry enough, eat their own, and these things are never NOT hungry.
If you do that, their menace diminishes because then all you have to do is outlive their hunger. They will eventually eat each other.

One of the defining pre-requisites for the zombie genre, in my opinion, is that the world has spiraled fully out of control and there will never be anywhere truly safe again.

Obviously World War Z takes liberties with that idea, but you get the picture.
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Old August 28 2010, 12:23 AM   #35
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
These are Horror Movies. If one wants to include the soul in the equation, it would be much more horrible to think an innocent person is tethered to these monsters and must uncontrollably take part in the violence, death and cannibalism.
Oh, I can accept that, but if they have no control over what's going on, then that doesn't explain where the apparent memory and higher functions come from in some of the zombies. It seems contradictory to imagine a soul tethered to the body and unable to act, and simultaneously the body acting on its own due to imprinted memory.

Wait, I've got it. The soul of an innocent person is tethered to the reanimated body and cannot leave, but also cannot exhibit normal control over it. (The body has a "mind of its own" so to speak, enough to allow it to shamble around and so on as Zachary Smith describes. Not evil per se, just unintelligent and aggressive.)

It is possible for the soul to gain partial control over the body to some degree, but it can only do so by indelibly twisting itself to match the zombie's bestial nature. Turning to the dark side, so to speak. This allows for certain zombies to speak, reason to some extent, and possess at least partial memory, but it also means those zombies become truly evil in practically every case. And those souls truly are damned.

And keeping the soul in this particular equation allows for another nasty catch-22: Either be stuck in your own body unable to affect anything forever, or regain conscious control of your body at the cost of your soul.

I'm kind of making this up as I go. Does it make sense or contradict anything?
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Old August 28 2010, 01:32 AM   #36
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
It might be better to suggest that the real soul has moved on to the afterlife, and the reanimation of the body has left it open to possession by an evil spirit of some kind, one that gives it enough volition to walk around and munch brains. Maybe even a spirit that knows enough about the host-body to mimic some of its habits in life.
I'm cool with that explanation.

IMHO, the soul is never forcibly attached to the body. The host dies, the soul goes to the afterlife. So the zombie cannot therefore be conscious. Either it's a mindless husk, not controlled by anything at all and without consciousness, or it's an alien/demon possessing it.
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Old August 28 2010, 01:55 AM   #37
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
In Day Of The Dead, one of the scientists experimented on a Zombie-- "Bubba" or something, his name was-- and found evidence of consciousness. I'm not sure if this was ever followed up. I must catch up on the Romero movies.
The zombie's name was "Bub," and it's followed up with "Land of the Dead." "Diary of the Dead" and "Survival of the Dead" take place during "Night of the Living Dead" and "Dawn of the Dead," more or less, so they have less to do with zombie intelligence. And the most recent one is pretty terrible.
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Old August 28 2010, 02:32 AM   #38
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
Gojirob wrote: View Post
And one more thing? Ditch the 'they won't eat each other' bull. Every other species will, if hungry enough, eat their own, and these things are never NOT hungry.
If you do that, their menace diminishes because then all you have to do is outlive their hunger. They will eventually eat each other.

One of the defining pre-requisites for the zombie genre, in my opinion, is that the world has spiraled fully out of control and there will never be anywhere truly safe again.

Obviously World War Z takes liberties with that idea, but you get the picture.
I doubt it would be a winning strategy. They would still vastly prefer the living, IMO. My idea is to just remove something that makes them virtually infinite in number and make it merely overwhelming. It would also, if implemented, have to be something they only do after a period of time that makes it impractical as a strategy unto itself, only as part of a larger survival plan. My thing isn't making the zombies manageable; my thing is removing the current atmosphere of 'Nu-uH! We thought of that and now zombies can phase their hands through walls and infect you just by knowing you're there' kind of amping up.
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Old August 28 2010, 09:59 AM   #39
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
These are Horror Movies. If one wants to include the soul in the equation, it would be much more horrible to think an innocent person is tethered to these monsters and must uncontrollably take part in the violence, death and cannibalism.
Oh, I can accept that, but if they have no control over what's going on, then that doesn't explain where the apparent memory and higher functions come from in some of the zombies. It seems contradictory to imagine a soul tethered to the body and unable to act, and simultaneously the body acting on its own due to imprinted memory.
Not really. Just think of the soul as the equivalent of paralyzed-- or in the grip of a slow seizure. There's consciousness, but no bodily control. Except, perhaps, with extreme effort....

Harvey wrote: View Post
RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
In Day Of The Dead, one of the scientists experimented on a Zombie-- "Bubba" or something, his name was-- and found evidence of consciousness. I'm not sure if this was ever followed up. I must catch up on the Romero movies.
The zombie's name was "Bub," and it's followed up with "Land of the Dead."
How did they follow it up in Land Of The Dead?

"Diary of the Dead" and "Survival of the Dead" take place during "Night of the Living Dead" and "Dawn of the Dead," more or less, so they have less to do with zombie intelligence. And the most recent one is pretty terrible.
That's interesting. I had no idea those movies were set during previous continuity. That makes me more curious to see them. My idea for a Dawn Of The Dead TV anthology, mentioned earlier, would have pretty much done that.
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Old August 28 2010, 07:11 PM   #40
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

Am I the only one that would like to see a movie/tv show about fully conscious zombies? what happens when youre still you but youre slowly decaying, limbs falling off, and you can pass it on to other poeple by touch? I guess it would sort of stop being a horror film & more sci-fi, kinda like Outbreak with all the body horror scenes in District 9 happening to many people at once.

Or to still make it somewhat horror related, what if the virus(or whatever causes the zombification) only causes half the affected to become mindless predators & the other half keep their personalities? So then there's this problem of how do you treat the self consious good zombies? Some of them will probably want to be put out of their misery but what do you do with all the others who still want to live their lives but they are actually a public menace b/c they can infect others & they stink & leave body bits all over the place? Do they get advocates & become a zombie minority? ok actually this is starting to sound like X-Men & mutants.
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Old August 28 2010, 07:59 PM   #41
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

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How did they follow it up in Land Of The Dead?
The zombies start to organize, exhibiting collective intelligence. I've only seen it once, but at the time I liked it. I can't emphasize how bad "Survival of the Dead" is, though. Fans tend to dump on "Diary of the Dead," but its far better than the follow-up.
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Old August 29 2010, 12:30 AM   #42
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

Mostly zombies bore me, but I'll check it out because AMC productions have been batting pretty good lately. It is striking how many zombi movies/stories have been devolving into some sort of make friends/coexist with zombies/let's all be zombies together tales. It's like zombies are characters who let the viewers act out aggressive fantasies but after a while the viewers want their fantasies validated.
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Old August 29 2010, 02:19 AM   #43
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

melancholymecha wrote: View Post
Am I the only one that would like to see a movie/tv show about fully conscious zombies? what happens when youre still you but youre slowly decaying, limbs falling off, and you can pass it on to other poeple by touch? I guess it would sort of stop being a horror film & more sci-fi, kinda like Outbreak with all the body horror scenes in District 9 happening to many people at once.

Or to still make it somewhat horror related, what if the virus(or whatever causes the zombification) only causes half the affected to become mindless predators & the other half keep their personalities? So then there's this problem of how do you treat the self consious good zombies? Some of them will probably want to be put out of their misery but what do you do with all the others who still want to live their lives but they are actually a public menace b/c they can infect others & they stink & leave body bits all over the place? Do they get advocates & become a zombie minority? ok actually this is starting to sound like X-Men & mutants.
There was a book like that a few years ago. It's called Wet Work (by Philip Nutman).

It was about a zombie outbreak caused by the earth passing through the tail of a comet. But in it, there are different 'stages' of dead; some are the standard Romero-esque shambling zombies, all the way up to those who retain their full intelligence and personality. These 'smart zombies' can put on new clothes, drive cars, organize ambushes using guns ("Body patrol, come and bag our food!"), and quickly take over the government - renaming it the United States of Hell (a government by the undead, of the undead, for the undead).
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Old August 29 2010, 02:25 AM   #44
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

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How did they follow it up in Land Of The Dead?
The zombies start to organize, exhibiting collective intelligence. I've only seen it once, but at the time I liked it. I can't emphasize how bad "Survival of the Dead" is, though. Fans tend to dump on "Diary of the Dead," but its far better than the follow-up.
I had much more fun with Survival than Diary. Yeah, it was bad, but enjoyably so. Romero continues to make his films how he wants despite the negativity, and I admire that about him.
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Old August 29 2010, 02:27 AM   #45
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Re: AMC's 'The Walking Dead' Trailer (Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd)

I wouldn't mind a film which starts out with *everyone* a zombie. Absolutely no living humans to be seen. Then some of them start to become un-undead - i.e. become living again. How would the zombies deal with an outbreak of "life"?
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