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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old December 24 2009, 12:07 PM   #586
Tomalak
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Re: old TV transferred to HD from camera negative

jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
although as
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Generations plunged the "space hotel" into darkness, presumably in part to hide the wear and tear to the seven year old sets.
It would appear when you look at the ex-astris-scientia article that when telecined to HD it looks even well, brighter. At least more neutral and less contrasty than the TNG DVDs which makes the ENT-D interiors look more like a hotel.
But the TATV shot is deceptive, as it has been manipulated to match the scenes filmed in 2005. I imagine they've been graded, so who knows what the "original" shot looked like.
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Old December 24 2009, 02:03 PM   #587
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Harvey wrote: View Post
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It would still be ridiculous to let the film continue to deteriorate.
There's a common misconception here. Film is THE long-duration storage medium when done properly. Digital storage is a short to medium term solution at best, and requires commuting every few years to avoid degradation, something everybody from Kodak to wholly digital facilities are aware of. Film LASTS.
Film lasts if it is stored in proper conditions. Film studios are notorious for throwing out old film negatives all the time, or leaving them in less than suitable storage conditions. At the moment, the negatives to Star Trek the Next Generation are in good shape, but who knows what will happen to them in the future.
Since the coming of homevid formats that were higher quality than VHS, studios have been taking tender loving care of every element, now that they know they can squeeze buck after buck out of the film.

If Paramount had realized homevid was going to continue to build back in early 1980, do you think they'd've said 'we don't want 'em' to the vfx companies on TMP who asked 'where do you want the film elements we shot?' after the movie came out? (Trumbull's company kept theirs for a couple years, then THREW THEM OUT due to space issues, and probably also because Paramount stupidly didn't rehire them for TWOK.)

film preservation is no longer a niche concern like the environment has usually been; now it is a market issue. That's why they've done these studies on photochem vs digital storage, to know they're spending on a methodology that guarantees a future for their core elements.
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Old December 24 2009, 04:21 PM   #588
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Re: old TV transferred to HD from camera negative

Tomalak wrote: View Post
jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
although as
Tomalak wrote: View Post
Generations plunged the "space hotel" into darkness, presumably in part to hide the wear and tear to the seven year old sets.
It would appear when you look at the ex-astris-scientia article that when telecined to HD it looks even well, brighter. At least more neutral and less contrasty than the TNG DVDs which makes the ENT-D interiors look more like a hotel.
But the TATV shot is deceptive, as it has been manipulated to match the scenes filmed in 2005. I imagine they've been graded, so who knows what the "original" shot looked like.
The point it Tomalak that on the TNG 35mm original camera negative is all this "information" that has always been there. The old telecines used and standard definition analog videotape media just never could capture all this "information" from the film itself back then.
Anytime you do a telecine transfer from a color negative you have to 'grade' it which to non film & TV people that means color, contrast, and brightness tweaking. And because it is the negative it could be 3 stops overexposed and it could still look perfect once finished.
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Old December 24 2009, 05:06 PM   #589
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Re: old TV transferred to HD from camera negative

Well yes, but if so desired, the grade could keep the original tones. There's no need for TNG-R to look brighter.
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Old December 25 2009, 04:29 AM   #590
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Re: old TV transferred to HD from camera negative

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Well yes, but if so desired, the grade could keep the original tones. There's no need for TNG-R to look brighter.
I think he is trying to say it could look RICHER. Deeper blacks while keeping the highlights w/o blooming is possible when scanning if you use certain plugins. Greater dynamic range -- lack of which being what makes most CG-originated stuff look bad to me -- PLUS higher resolution really is best of both worlds.
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Old December 25 2009, 08:31 AM   #591
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Re: old TV transferred to HD from camera negative

jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
And because it is the negative it could be 3 stops overexposed and it could still look perfect once finished.
Perfect? Acceptable, perhaps. It would depend on the film stock, and the process used to correct it, but I'd say a properly exposed shot is always going to look better than one that has been adjusted in post-production, especially if it was originally overexposed by three entire F-stops.
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Old December 25 2009, 05:05 PM   #592
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ILM model shots in 1987 for Generations

Harvey wrote: View Post
I'd say a properly exposed shot is always going to look better than one that has been adjusted in post-production
I'm in agreement with you. I was only using that as an extreme example of how much leeway you have when using film camera negative telecined to HD and are able to control contrast, color, and brightness in post production. In this case how that ENT episode TATV above looked using the TNG original footage for that shot.


ST-One wrote: View Post
TNG's space shots also could have used some more dramatic lighting.
I just watched Generations SCE DVD and on the Okuda text commentary he mentions at 51:43. Also the saucer separation at 1:21:14.
This shot of the Ent-D was a reuse of film elements shot by ILM for the first episode of ST:TNG [Encounter at Farpoint].
The SCE DVD had a lot of dirt and hairs in that shot but it looks good. lots of detail and dynamic range.

I haven't seen the Blu-ray of ST:Generations but perhaps someone can comment on those two shots and how they look in HD on the Blu-ray considering they were created in 1987?
I think we all could agree both shots were from the 6-foot Ent-D model.
It goes to show what TNG-R could look like in HD for the ENT-D ILM-produced 6-ft model shots at least for Encounter at Farpoint and episodes using the stock shots from what ILM created.
It was also mentioned on the Okuda commentary that the 6-ft. model was also used for new shots in Generations to show the detail as they felt the 4-foot model didn't have enough detail for the big screen.
Who knows what the 2-foot model shots would look like in 1080p...probably a toy model...
This may also be one reason why a CG model of the Ent-D would probably be used for consistency as I've mentioned before.

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Old December 25 2009, 05:59 PM   #593
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Re: old TV transferred to HD from camera negative

Harvey wrote: View Post
jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
And because it is the negative it could be 3 stops overexposed and it could still look perfect once finished.
It would depend on the film stock, and the process used to correct it, but I'd say a properly exposed shot is always going to look better than one that has been adjusted in post-production, especially if it was originally overexposed by three entire F-stops.
Film and video processes are often quite different, especially when you're talking negative film rather than reversal stock.

Plenty of cinematographers regularly overexpose the film a stop or two, then 'print it down' to create a denser negative, one that stands up to being messed with better than a perfectly exposed negative.

Obviously what constitutes well-exposed is subjective, but if the ideal image is the goal, then exposing film at something other than optimum is often exactly what needs to be done.

Video and digital are very much more like reversal film stock, where you have less latitude, and exposure is more critical. Main dif is that while underexposure is death on reversal film, overexposure is death in digital, because the highlights are GONE.
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Old December 26 2009, 08:03 PM   #594
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Re: ILM model shots in 1987 for Generations

jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
I haven't seen the Blu-ray of ST:Generations but perhaps someone can comment on those two shots and how they look in HD on the Blu-ray considering they were created in 1987?
They look pretty good to me, except for the fact that the saucer section is slightly transparent during the separation sequence and you can see a starfield through it... for some reason. It's been so long since I've seen "Farpoint," I can't remember if that was in the original shot.
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Old December 30 2009, 12:24 AM   #595
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Re: ILM model shots in 1987 for Generations

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
I haven't seen the Blu-ray of ST:Generations but perhaps someone can comment on those two shots and how they look in HD on the Blu-ray considering they were created in 1987?
They look pretty good to me, except for the fact that the saucer section is slightly transparent during the separation sequence and you can see a starfield through it... for some reason. It's been so long since I've seen "Farpoint," I can't remember if that was in the original shot.
I thought it was decent as well, except that the color of the Enterprise is also a little different (browner maybe?) than the other, newer shots.
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Old April 16 2010, 10:46 PM   #596
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

For those looking for a completist discussion in this TNG series being remastered to HD other than this thread:

there are two other threads you may want to read:
If STNG were remastered...
last post September 11, 2008.

How long until TNG: Remastered?
last post February 6, 2008.
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Old April 18 2010, 10:26 PM   #597
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Re: old TV transferred to HD from camera negative

Aside from the new movie, the remastering of STNG is my next favorite project/hope for the future of ST. I don't have any delusions of it happening at this point, but its a dream project.

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Old June 14 2010, 04:11 AM   #598
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deleted scenes

On the ENT DVDs there are deleted scenes with unfinished special effects and production audio.
It shows a little more how Star Trek in 2000s was shot for visual effects with blue/green screens as well as that there were additional scenes shot that were deleted from the episode.

Were there scenes shot but deleted from TNG ?
If anyone has read scripts could you give a few examples of deleted scenes and which episodes?

No gag reels/mashups please?

I highly doubt they are going to bother with conforming any deleted scenes from a new HD telecine but could we expect to see rough cuts of deleted scenes if only from 1" analog or 3/4" videotape original edited rough cuts ?
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Old June 14 2010, 04:18 AM   #599
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Re: deleted scenes

TNG certainly had deleted scenes. Off the top of my head, I remember a deleted ending to "Captain's Holiday" as well as a seen with Mr. Mott that was cut for time in another episode (the exact title escapes me). It would be interesting to see them.
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Old August 22 2010, 01:52 AM   #600
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Re: deleted scenes

Tried to find the latest on this, its from early AUG 2010: Good news: Still being worked on...Bad news: its problematic...

http://trekmovie.com/2010/08/09/vega...r-shaker-more/

VegasCon Star Trek Products Panel: TNG on Blu-ray ‘Being Discussed’ + New Enterprise Pizza Slicer, Kelvin Salt & Pepper Shaker + more August 9, 2010

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Conventions/Events/Attractions, DVD/Blu-ray, Merchandise, TNG , trackback

The CBS Consumer Products presentation at the Star Trek con in Las Vegas mostly covered previously reported stuff, but there were a few new tidbits for Trek merchandise, like the USS Enterprise Pizza slicer. But the most interesting bit of information came from a response to a fan question about TNG on Blu-ray. See below for a breakdown of what is to come from CBS.
Next Gen on Blu-ray?
All three seasons of the originalStar Trek are now available in HD, but what about TNG? In a response to a question about TNG on Blu-ray, CBS Consumer Products VP John Van Citters told the crowd in Las Vegas that releasing Star Trek: The Next Generation on Blu-ray was much more "problematic" than the original Star Trek, due to how the TNG original effects shots were composited, and how that makes the transfer to HD "incredibly difficult without making them look awful." However, he also said that there is "a lot of conversations going on" within CBS on how to convert TNG to HD, and Van Citters expressed optimism noting "It is being worked on and I expect it will happen, it is just a technical challenge."
Following his talk, I confirmed with Van Citters that even though he is optimistic that the challenges will be met, as of now there is no specific plan or budget for the project within CBS. So this is still something that is a long-term project.
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