RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,250
Posts: 5,348,750
Members: 24,613
Currently online: 664
Newest member: Chairslinger

TrekToday headlines

MicroWarriors Releases Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Ships Of The Line Design Contest
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Next Weekend: Shore Leave 36!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

True Trek History To Be Penned
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Insight Editions Announces Three Trek Books For 2015
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

To Be Takei Review by Spencer Blohm
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Mulgrew: Playing Red
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Hallmark 2015 Trek Ornaments
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Funko Mini Spock
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

IDW Publishing Comic Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 8 2010, 02:51 AM   #16
neozeks
Captain
 
neozeks's Avatar
 
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

Beam them out when they're asleep then. Won't feel a thing...

Ok, bad idea. Just give them all a holocommunications device and you have an instant conference.
__________________
What if it's a smart fungus?
neozeks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 8 2010, 03:04 AM   #17
Penta
Commander
 
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

Have we seen the holocom devices used remotely like that?

I seem to recall them being strictly one-to-one devices. As a big part of this conference would be decisionmaking re the public revelation of extraterrestrial life, they need to be capable of many to many comms...It might be better if everybody were to "breathe the same air".
Penta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 8 2010, 05:18 AM   #18
Cicero
Admiral
 
Cicero's Avatar
 
Location: The City of Destiny
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

Penta wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
5. The educational system more fully melds local knowledge and traditions and customs with Federation knowledge
This sounds more than a little scary. This procedure could eventual lead to a "Federation Clone World." Traditions and customs need to be vehemently non-melded.
Absolutely. Poor choice of words on my part. My intent is that local knowledge is melded with Federation knowledge (for example in the sciences), with Federation knowledge (and just as importantly, access to UFP databases like Memory Alpha - because my God, it'd be a planetwide case of learning too much, too fast, of "Too Much Information" if you just gave out full access in one move!) being introduced first in and through universities, then secondary schools, then primary schools over time, perhaps over generations, so that local knowledge isn't lost and local customs and traditions can hold up.

It would turn the stomachs of many here on TrekBBS, myself included to a point (I like the idea of knowledge being free), but I'd see knowledge being introduced only with the consent of those "in control" such as planetary governmental and religious authorities - not an "all or nothing" thing, but very carefully delineating what can be introduced to a population over time in what areas. I could see most religions, for example, having no problem with knowledge of warp physics or astronomical knowledge...But they might want to hold back on letting knowledge about the Q filter out, while theologians figure out a response. (Yes, I am saying that the Federation would reluctantly assist in censorship. Not because they like it, but because it would be a necessity. The simple fact of the matter is that to unleash everything at once, on principle, would rip most societies apart. Censorship of anything may often be distasteful to "liberalized" minds such as ours, but the Federation has no interest in seeing First Contact (or the introduction of new things after FC) cause revolutions or societal upheavals. That rarely ends well for the planets that undergo them, and, purely self-interestedly, it probably leads the locals to blame the Federation for introducing everything.)

The UFP wants to introduce the new folks to all the wondrous knowledge they have on offer, but they have no interest in the introduction of said knowledge causing societal havoc or the overturning of societal structures. If the knowledge impacts the evolution of the society, okay. But it's okay only while it remains an evolutionary process.
To advocate a different point of view:

Noninterference as Federation principle seems to apply in two ways, both of which relate to cultural evolution. First, it protects the development of immature societies from accelerating influences. Second, it secures the right of peer societies to make their own informed choices about their futures.

The recognition principles by which the Federation operates seem to imply a judgment of maturity operates when communicating with a culture. If a culture is judged mature, it does not seem unreasonable to presume that its citizens are entitled to all information that is normally freely available, to do with as they choose.

That I can recall, we've never seen the Federation withhold information from a culture that it considered equal to its own. It seems to me that withholding knowledge from an equal, or acceding to the censoring desires of its powerful structures is inconsistent with the Federation's philosophies and behavior. If anything, Starfleet captains seem to approach with a certain degree of relish what opportunities they have to challenge societal structures with uncomfortable truths (to be resolved by persons within the affected society).
__________________
Ad majorem futuri gloriam.
Cicero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 8 2010, 06:20 AM   #19
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

but the problem is that there are decisions that need to be made with zero leaks, more or less right then
Given that the Federation's proposal is basically "We get our way - or - we get our way." what local decisions would needed to be made at all?

That's basically impossible at lower levels
By lower level, I meant below the level of the chief executive. A trusted adviser or well instructed ambassador would do. There would also be sensible security concerns. The leadership knowns little about the Federation at this point (actual nothing), and these new aliens only want to get every last world leader in one room with no protective details, well that certainly sound reasonable. Hell, the secret service, literally, might not let the President walk into that room alone. Or let him travel to the meeting at all.

They'll still be absorbing the idea that an FTL engine worked for real.
That would depend on how much time has transpired between the first flight and first contact. If the preference is to have a dedicated contact team handle the first contact and taking into account communications and travel times, actual first contact might be months, or in rare occasions years, after the first flight. The Wright brothers flew three times the first day.

And until you know ET can't blow up your city, your country, or your planet with a button-push, you have to presume they can. Until you know they won't, you gotta presume they will if you look at them funny.
So place all the leaders in their hands.

there'd still be significant pressure from every other country on the planet to put up a unified front and not strike out on your own.
Previously I mention that hypothetically either Russia or America might be the ones to achieve warp flight first. So "put up a unified front and not strike out on your own." Uhmmm, would not that advice be the exact opposite of the exspected actions of those two nations?

In fact Penta, from a certain way of looking at it, a nation that was afraid to strike off on their own ...

... probably won't be the one to invent a warp drive!

the UFP if they can't herd their members on at least that issue
If I saw that individual member worlds retained their sovereign rights in the face of the central power, if anything would be an encouragement to one day join.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9 2010, 08:01 PM   #20
Cepstrum
Commander
 
Location: State of Oregon, USA
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

You guys have an interesting discussion going on, but if I may, I'd like to drop by and ask a few questions:

1. What's stopping less scrupulous species (such as the Ferengi) from bypassing the UFP and making First Contact whenever they want to (say, to exploit planets)? Does Starfleet militantly guard pre-warp civilizations? I'd think that would require more ships than even the huge Starfleet possesses. Or does the UFP only assume responsibility for making FC for planets within its own territory? Obviously it can't go all over the galaxy doing this. So does it restrict making FC to planets within its borders?

2. About requiring FTL travel as a requirement before making FC. As it's been noted, once a planet starts exploring with FTL, they'll probably soon run into other species. Thus, I think it's a fairly reasonable boundary marker. But how likely is it, do you think, for a planet to be able to develop FTL without cooperation from the entire planet? I'd think such a huge undertaking would only be possible once the various political entities quit fighting each other and instead come together in peace. Of course, that's not how it happened with Earth, but I think the whole idea of Cochrane developing a warp drive in the woods with little help is a little far-fetched. So I'd think that by the time a society develops FTL travel, they'd have already moved beyond the point of petty internal bickering and have an established, planet-wide government. But maybe not. That's why I ask.
Cepstrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9 2010, 10:37 PM   #21
Penta
Commander
 
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

Cepstrum: Good questions. I'll try for answers.

1. The way I see it, the Ferengi (for example) aren't going to range over the entirety of even the Alpha Quadrant. There's a reason, after all, that first contact wasn't made with them until TNG, in-universe. Basically, besides the UFP, I only see the Klingons and the Romulans as having both the interest and the expanse of territory needed to really be issues for first contact outside of a certain local area. Even they aren't as assiduous about it as the Feds though, because of internal issues (in the Klingon case) and their own xenophobia/isolationism (in the Romulan case). The Cardassians are poor enough that, even prior to the Dominion War, they probably were not exactly threats; The Ferengi are likely to let the Federation do the hard work of making First Contact on behalf of the galaxy, for their part, really only acting as you suggest within a very limited local area (where I'd believe that, after the Pakled, the UFP is somewhat insistent to the Ferengi about keeping off the pre-warp folks; I just don't see a repeat of that situation being good for anybody, y'know?). The point is that making first contact, even if you don't observe the strictures of something like the PD, takes real resources. In part, I'd imagine something like the PD actually helps limit the resources issue - Before a certain pre-warp point, you ignore a planet except for an occasional flyby and passive monitoring, as far as Starfleet resources go; after all, for all you know the civilizations on the planet could all be eliminated by a disease, environmental catastrophe, evolution, whatever. After a certain point, but before warp travel is achieved, you step up the monitoring. They're likely to stick around, and presuming they don't eliminate themselves through global war or the like (or something unexpected happens like an asteroid strike), eventually they'll probably get FTL travel. As that point gets closer, you increase the monitoring, trying hard for them not to notice you or suspect your presence/visiting. You also focus most of your "hands off the pre-warpers" resources here - really, doesn't require much, as by the 2380s it's likely that anybody left who doesn't have warp travel is in probably isolated areas that aren't of strategic importance. After FTL travel is achieved, PD protection goes away, and part of the reason there's a scramble on the UFP's part to make FC ASAP after that is in the (UFP-perceived) interest of the locals as much as the UFP - to negotiate something allowing the locals to not get run over by the Klingons, the Romulans, the Ferengi, unscrupulous Feddies, etc., where they assent to Starfleet providing protection, both giving them time to wrap their heads around the situation they just flung themselves into, and giving the UFP the grounds on which to go "Grr, no trying to take them over/fleece them blind!" to all the other powers. I wouldn't call it a protectorate status, as it's much looser than that implies, though.

2. I think Cochrane's "guy in the woods develops FTL space engine" thing seen in FC makes no sense at all, but I do not put it as impossible or even totally unlikely that a sufficiently wealthy nation (or, more likely, alliance of nations), using national/multinational research organizations and infrastructure, could do it. I think that the closer you are to a single world government, the less motivation you would usually have to invest in a FTL space engine, because a single world government (or close to it) takes a horde of resources anyway (as does an FTL engine), and you don't have the same thing with national prestige as a motivator for funding. (Because there's a chicken-and-egg problem with for-profit anybody going for FTL...Unless you are abundantly certain you'll profit immensely from it, why would you spend nearly the massive amount of resources/money it'd take? (We'll just set the whole issue of the Ferengi aside for right now, please? They make my head hurt when I think about it.))

So, I'd say there's an even-money shot that the civilization breaking the "warp barrier" has a single world government as not.
Penta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9 2010, 11:01 PM   #22
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

but I think the whole idea of Cochrane developing a warp drive in the woods with little help is a little far-fetched.
The argument could be made that Cochrane was only performing final assembly and launch in that silo, possible for security reasons and that research, development and production of the Phoenix and the warp drive was actual carried out in the central area of the nearby (former?) Air Force base.

Data said Cochrane's launch site was "a missile complex in central Montana." That pretty much makes it Malmstrom Air Force Base, near Great Falls, Montana. The current 341st missile wing has a fairly large central base and about 200 outlaying missile silos spread over some 23,000 square miles. Currently those silos hold Minutemen Three missiles. The lower section of the missile in the movie looks like a Minuteman Three. So while it might look like Cochrane and his crew were in the middle of nowhere, likely instead they were merely at the end a access road a few dozen miles from the central base.

The star is the base, the big dots are comand centers and the spider web of access roads lead to individual missile silos.

One of which is Cochrane's.

http://a.imageshack.us/img820/5016/mal2.gif

But how likely is it, do you think, for a planet to be able to develop FTL without cooperation from the entire planet?
Not really that hard to believe that a single nation could produce a warp ship, provided it independently possessed the necessary resources (brains and materials).

Does Starfleet militantly guard pre-warp civilizations?
If they first know about them, then sure, that might be a portion of Starfleet's mandate. This next is from a past thread;

.
KIRK: General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.

MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that.
.
.
But if we monkey with the language a little bit, we get this;

KIRK: General Order 7 -- No vessel under any condition (emergency or otherwise) is to visit any planet on the proscribed list (which include Talos Four), unless the prohibition is suspended.

MENDEZ: General orders are the only death penalties left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why Talos Four is on the proscribed list, not even this file explains that.
The threat of the death penalty may be what keeps ships (civilian and otherwise) away from all planets protected by the prime directive. The prime directive is a general order. In order to keep ships away from Talos Four, it was added to the list. Talos Four (it would seem) lacked FTL ships, so adding it to the proscribed list would have been legal under the prime directive. Commodore Mendez's statement was that there was no explanation as to why it was on the list. Suggesting the reason that other planets are on the proscribed list is explained.]

The death penalty might be the maximum possible penalty. With a lesser penalty being the standard, in America some States have the death penalty, but it's rarely used.
.
Again, from a different thread, however if the Federation applies and enforces their General Orders to all planets on their proscribed list, with varying degrees of punishment (including but rarely death), that might keep even the Ferengi away. "Primitive" worlds would have sensors and beacons placedin their star systems that would call Starfleet about an incursion, who would then sent the nearest ship. Something small like a corvette or a destroyer would usually do the job.

does the UFP only assume responsibility for making FC for planets within its own territory?
This would make sense.




Last edited by T'Girl; August 10 2010 at 07:51 AM.
T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9 2010, 11:52 PM   #23
neozeks
Captain
 
neozeks's Avatar
 
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

Cepstrum wrote: View Post
1. What's stopping less scrupulous species (such as the Ferengi) from bypassing the UFP and making First Contact whenever they want to (say, to exploit planets)? Does Starfleet militantly guard pre-warp civilizations? I'd think that would require more ships than even the huge Starfleet possesses. Or does the UFP only assume responsibility for making FC for planets within its own territory? Obviously it can't go all over the galaxy doing this. So does it restrict making FC to planets within its borders?
Pre-warp planets within it's borders, without a doubt (though that may include warding of pesky civilians, including Federates, more than anything). As for thouse outside, I'd say it tries to protect those that are nearby, in it's own 'sphere of influence' so to say. Of course, as you point out, resources are limited so sometimes it'll have to pick and choose (based on factors such as the pre-warp civ's need for protection and the Federation's own interests) and sometimes to provide protection only on a semi-regular basis. But it's also possible Starfleet personnel have a standing order to try to prevent foreign meddling in all the cases they come across, wherever they may be.


T'Girl wrote: View Post
The argument could be made that Cochrane was only performing final assembly and launch in that silo, possible for security reasons and that research, development and production of the Phoenix and the warp drive was actual carried out in the central area of the nearby (former?) Air Force base.
Yeah, that's the rationalization I always use. For all we know, most of the work was done before WW3 and then the war devastated everything leaving only Cochrane and a bunch of his associates to improvise the final touches.
__________________
What if it's a smart fungus?
neozeks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2010, 05:38 AM   #24
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

Penta, I'm usually on the same page as you (even if I quibble at details here or there), but I have some fundamental disagreements with some of the ideas you're presenting here.

Penta wrote: View Post
[They may think they're ready. You may think, for a minute, they're ready. Truth is, no species is ever truly ready to find out they aren't alone in the cosmos, and it's doubtful any ever would be.]
The problem with this notion is that real history defies it. The world's cultures spent most of history coming into contact with strange and alien cultures whose common humanity they did not immediately recognize. The cultures that exist today are the descendants of cultures that were routinely making first contact with cultures that they considered the equivalent to what we would call extraterrestrial today.

And guess what? It didn't shatter any society to come into contact with cultures it believed to be non-human or otherworldly.

Penta wrote: View Post
10. Limit how much they have to take in: Don't use a transporter, use a shuttlecraft if you can, to transport personnel. Don't use a replicator when you can cook real food. In short: When dealing with the target species, limit to the best extent possible how much they have to get used to (at one time) beyond the facts of "there are other species out there" and "those species have FTL travel too". That's plenty to get used to. [I fully imagine that, where the UFP intends to make the first move, they deploy ships that are capable of everything modern operations require, but that can also, for example, not use replicators (and not suggest the existence of same). This helps limit the shock the utterly bewildered locals have to experience, and lets the Federation personnel "ease them in" to the idea of higher technology over timeframes longer than a First Contact.]
I really don't think this is an issue at all. A species that has developed warp technology is going to have already speculated about the possible existence of aliens, and they're inevitably going to have developed the idea that many different technologies far in advance of their own may exist. The only real threshold is finding out with certainty that aliens exist; everything else is just a matter of degree.

Penta wrote: View Post
Okay, still going.
2. Not creating a cargo cult: Religion is okay. Most societies in the UFP have a majority or at least a sizable minority who still hold to religious beliefs and practice. Cargo cults, though (defined imprecisely for our purposes as "Worshiping people who are not deities, know they aren't deities, and are not necessarily trying to be or impersonate deities"),
That's not necessarily an accurate definition of a cargo cult, though. Most cargo cults in 20th Century Pacific island cultures emerged because they believed that the "cargo" (an English translation of a term referring to the advanced technology of the industrial societies) was granted to American and Japanese cultures because they had been blessed by gods or ancestors, and that thus by imitating the actions of American and Japanese soldiers -- copying their morning drills, for instance, or building imitation airfields -- they would be pleasing the gods and thus gain the blessings that had been given to the industrial cultures. In other words, they didn't worship the industrial cultures, but instead believed that the industrial cultures' behaviors were forms of worship of the islanders' gods.

And while there will always be a small minority of nutjobs, it seems highly improbable to me that a society that's already reached industrialization, and then presumably nuclear technology, would contextualize extraterrestrial life as divine.

5. As the planet is readier (ie, so nobody freaks out or gets suckered by the Ferengi), contact with the galaxy is slowly expanded with Federation help.<SNIP>

During this time, the planet is (sometimes officially, but just as often implicitly and unofficially) a Federation protectorate - it has total control "internally", over its own species, own governments, own societies, but looks to the Federation for everything to do with spaceborne defense (it's the rare planet without FTL that has a space defense force), interstellar relations, and generally everything else to do with the wider galaxy. They can pull out of this relationship at any time, but it basically never happens at this point - the planet is too dependent on Federation help, and knows it.
Pardon me, but at what point does that cease to be about helping an interstellarly inexperienced culture and become a matter of neo-imperialism? Does the Federation also force them to privatize state industries if they want loans?

And why would this be unofficial rather than official, if First Contact has happened and the public knows about it? Surely it would be a violation of the basic principles of democracy and self-determination and political sovereignty for the Federation to make a planet a protectorate without its full, open consent in the form of a treaty with its legitimate government(s).

This phase is wrapped up with when:
1. Politically, the planet has (ideally) a single stable government with authority over the entire territory held by the species on planet and beyond the planet, or an intergovernmental organization that can do the same thing. There might still be conflicts here or there, some perhaps barely under control, but no wars breaking out;
I don't buy that last part. If there are some conflicts still out there barely under control, then the planet is by definition still politically unstable and disunited, and a flare-up of a local war is inevitable without Federation mediation.

4. Economically, hunger and deprivation may not be eliminated, but there aren't any regions that are outright suffering.
.... how can you logically claim that there are no regions that aren't outright suffering if there's still hunger and deprivation?

Surely whatever else the Federation can do, it can do the simple work of ensuring that no one on the planet is going hungry anymore.

3. Technology-wise, transporters and other technology of roughly 2200-era Earth are in use on a planetary scale;
Erm, the Federation itself wasn't established until 2161. Are you saying that a world isn't ready to even consider Federation Membership until it's progressed beyond the levels Earth had reached when it co-founded the UFP?

Penta wrote: View Post
I agree - there'd be a briefing as to who's in the area, but I also think that the UFP would be very careful in the speed at which it lets the information out. I can only imagine the planetary freaking out that occurs when people learn about the Borg!

<SNIP>

Absolutely. Poor choice of words on my part. My intent is that local knowledge is melded with Federation knowledge (for example in the sciences), with Federation knowledge (and just as importantly, access to UFP databases like Memory Alpha - because my God, it'd be a planetwide case of learning too much, too fast, of "Too Much Information" if you just gave out full access in one move!)
You keep returning to this theme of "Don't tell them too much or else they'll freak out." I find that entire concept really disturbing. Governments in real life have a habit of relying on that kind of secrecy as a result of a combination of arrogance and paranoia -- "We can't let the little people know too much, they're not as smart as we are and they might screw everything over." So why's the Federation adopting that attitude?

The basic problem with that entire idea is that it's built on the implicit premise that the Federation is inherently superior to the culture being contacted. More specifically, that its people are inherently to the contacted cultures' people.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see any reason to think that an introduction of knowledge about the galaxy at large would cause social collapse. If anything, it would only increase the likelihood that the populace would start to trust the Federation.

Think about it. They're going to find out at some point that the Federates have been hiding things from them. How is that going to make them trust the Federation? How well will that play?

If the people of the Planet Zog discover that there are these creatures out there called the Borg, and Zog lies within the last two Borg cubes' paths when they tried to assimilate the Alpha Quadrant, and that the Federation tried to hide that fact from them, why exactly should the Zoglians trust them ever again?

It would turn the stomachs of many here on TrekBBS, myself included to a point (I like the idea of knowledge being free), but I'd see knowledge being introduced only with the consent of those "in control" such as planetary governmental and religious authorities - not an "all or nothing" thing, but very carefully delineating what can be introduced to a population over time in what areas. I could see most religions, for example, having no problem with knowledge of warp physics or astronomical knowledge...But they might want to hold back on letting knowledge about the Q filter out, while theologians figure out a response. (Yes, I am saying that the Federation would reluctantly assist in censorship. Not because they like it, but because it would be a necessity.
Why? Because the elites are ever so much cleverer than the masses?

Could you possibly be more elitist?

The simple fact of the matter is that to unleash everything at once, on principle, would rip most societies apart. Censorship of anything may often be distasteful to "liberalized" minds such as ours, but the Federation has no interest in seeing First Contact (or the introduction of new things after FC) cause revolutions or societal upheavals. That rarely ends well for the planets that undergo them, and, purely self-interestedly, it probably leads the locals to blame the Federation for introducing everything.)
When Gandhi was demanding that the British leave India, the British response was often that if they left, it would tear India apart. It would be war and chaos and death. It would be a mess.

"Yes," Gandhi said. "But it would be our mess."

The Federation shouldn't be in the business of holding information back that doesn't itself threaten Federation security. If it isn't classified, it should be available to the Zoglians. It has no particular need to volunteer everything, and maybe they don't hook up everyone to the Memory Alpha database, but if Zogvard University asks for a copy of the Encyclopedia Federationea, it should be given to them. If the University of Zaggit-Zagoo wants to send an exchange delegation to the Vulcan Science Academy, Academia Andoria, and Oxford University, then they should be welcomed.

And it should be up to each society to figure out for itself how to assimilate that knowledge. If they're treated with respect, as equals, I doubt it would cause the sort of social chaos you're describing.

Like I said, the big thing is just finding out that aliens exist (and even that won't be that big an issue, since the Zoglians will have had the experience in the past of geographically isolated Zoglians discovering one-another and thinking of one-another as un-Zoglian at first). Everything else is just details.

being introduced first in and through universities, then secondary schools, then primary schools
? Aside from the basic fact that aliens exist, I really don't see why primary education would need to be altered all that much. The primary influences would be on secondary and tertiary education systems.

[quote]
T'Girl wrote: View Post
1. Every national (or supra-national) government gets diplomatic representation from the UFP of some sort, including consular representation.
When Humanity first traveled into space, Humanity didn't, Russia did. When Humanity first traveled to the moon, Humanity didn't, America did. If the breaking the light barrier is analogous to breaking the sound barrier, it not hard to imagine a world with a wide diversity of technological levels and (I'm sorry) civilization levels. So why would the Federation contact the entire world?/QUOTE]

Can you imagine the reaction (politically, diplomatically, strategically) if you only let some nations on Earth have contact with Extraterrestrial Life, while denying the rest of the species knowledge of that fact, or contact with the ETs?

Come on, T'Girl. I don't generally call out a fellow poster directly, but while I know you enough to trust that you mean well, that sounds more than a little disingenuous. You and I both know that if that were done or even suspected to be occurring, and it were even suspected that there was "preferential treatment" happening (as it inevitably would be suspected), all hell would break loose. Not even because of the fact of contact, but because of the possibility of advantages to be gained in a political/military sense.
I'm with Penta on this one. The Federation would need to treat all polities equally.

(I really disliked First Contact (the movie)'s depiction of Cochrane as basically a guy working out of a garage - the development of FTL travel would require national-level resources at a minimum.
Cochrane was working out of a United States Air Force missile silo with converted ICBMs. It seems pretty obvious to me that he probably at least started the project out with government backing. Indeed, the First Contact novelization and, later, the Lost Era novel The Sundered establish that Cochrane began working on the project with federal backing; the project was sidetracked when World War III broke out and the U.S. government became nonfunctional, but with help from asteroid colonies established twenty years before the war and financial backing from Indonesian investors, he eventually got the warp project back on track, albeit without a government to back it.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2010, 05:43 AM   #25
Nerys Ghemor
Vice Admiral
 
Nerys Ghemor's Avatar
 
Location: Cardăsa Terăm--Nerys Ghemor
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

T'Girl...I agree it's Malmstrom AFB where Cochrane did his launch. Heck, that's even what my dad (who was in the Air Force) actually concluded it was the instant he heard that line in the movie when it first came out.
__________________
Are you a Cardassian fan, citizen? Prove your loyalty--check out my fanfic universe, Star Trek: Sigils and Unions. Or keep the faith on my AU Cardassia, Sigils and Unions: Catacombs of Oralius!
Nerys Ghemor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2010, 05:56 AM   #26
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
T'Girl...I agree it's Malmstrom AFB where Cochrane did his launch. Heck, that's even what my dad (who was in the Air Force) actually concluded it was the instant he heard that line in the movie when it first came out.
It can't be Malmstrom Air Force Base. ENT -- specifically, "Desert Crossing," "Carbon Creek," and "In A Mirror, Darkly, Part I" -- established that the Vulcans landed in Bozeman, Montana, and the Vulcans landed in the same town in which was the silo. Bozeman is in Gallatin County; Malmstrom AFB is in Cascade County. The U.S.A.F. must have built a new facility in the years between the present and the start of World War III.

* * *

Also, question:

What does the Federation do if the natives have already established their own set of diplomatic protocols to deal with First Contact? What if they're the ones who want to set the terms of contact?

Doctor Who did a riff on this a few years ago. The British Prime Minister went on TV claiming that he'd made first contact with an alien race called the Toclafane, and that caused the United States to go apeshit. The U.S. President-elect arrived in London, threatened the Prime Minister with removal from office under the provisions of a U.N. treaty signed in the 60s on the topic of how to deal with First Contact, and forced the Prime Minister to hold the formal First Contact ceremony aboard a United Nations aircraft carrier under U.N. auspices. (The Whoniverse's U.N. is a bit more powerful than the real one. )
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2010, 06:02 AM   #27
Nerys Ghemor
Vice Admiral
 
Nerys Ghemor's Avatar
 
Location: Cardăsa Terăm--Nerys Ghemor
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

Then that's a very unfortunate moment in canon--in that the writers failed to do their research and justify what they were doing in a way that would actually make sense.
__________________
Are you a Cardassian fan, citizen? Prove your loyalty--check out my fanfic universe, Star Trek: Sigils and Unions. Or keep the faith on my AU Cardassia, Sigils and Unions: Catacombs of Oralius!
Nerys Ghemor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2010, 06:07 AM   #28
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Then that's a very unfortunate moment in canon--in that the writers failed to do their research and justify what they were doing in a way that would actually make sense.
I'm fairly certain that Brannon Braga considered giving an homage to his hometown of Bozeman to be more important than matching up his fictional mid-21st Century missile silo with an obscure 20th Century Air Force Base's location.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2010, 08:33 AM   #29
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

Sci wrote: View Post
t can't be Malmstrom Air Force Base. ENT -- specifically, "Desert Crossing," "Carbon Creek," and "In A Mirror, Darkly, Part I" -- established that the Vulcans landed in Bozeman, Montana, and the Vulcans landed in the same town in which was the silo. Bozeman is in Gallatin County; Malmstrom AFB is in Cascade County. The U.S.A.F. must have built a new facility in the years between the present and the start of World War III.
A few problems with it being Bozeman, Montana. The movie take place on April 4 - 5, 2063. Bozeman is in the rocky mountains at 4,800 feet, Malmstrom AFB is on the Montana plains at 3,300 feet, if the missile complex were in Bozeman, than the area would be completely covered in snow.

Also, Data clearly states that the missile complex was located "In Central Montana." which describes Malmstrom AFB nicely. Bozeman is in the south-western portion of the state.

Also the START treaty has lead to the early retirement of the LGM-118 Peacekeeper ICBM, the USAF is dumping a ton of money into the refurbishing of the Minuteman Threes (they're getting the Peacekeeper's warheads), the MM3's have existing silos at Malmstrom AFB.. The plan is to keep them for "many more decades." The missile in the movie is modeled on the MM3, a new generation of ICBM's is unlikely to look exactly like a MM3. The silo has to be part of Malmstrom AFB.

Rather than conjecturing a new missile complex, it might be easier to believe in the establishment of a new community in central Montana named "Bozeman." Perhaps the former Bozeman was destroyed in the war because of the rumor that a new missile complex was being built there!


T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2010, 09:46 AM   #30
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
t can't be Malmstrom Air Force Base. ENT -- specifically, "Desert Crossing," "Carbon Creek," and "In A Mirror, Darkly, Part I" -- established that the Vulcans landed in Bozeman, Montana, and the Vulcans landed in the same town in which was the silo. Bozeman is in Gallatin County; Malmstrom AFB is in Cascade County. The U.S.A.F. must have built a new facility in the years between the present and the start of World War III.
A few problems with it being Bozeman, Montana. The movie take place on April 4 - 5, 2063. Bozeman is in the rocky mountains at 4,800 feet, Malmstrom AFB is on the Montana plains at 3,300 feet, if the missile complex were in Bozeman, than the area would be completely covered in snow.

Also, Data clearly states that the missile complex was located "In Central Montana." which describes Malmstrom AFB nicely. Bozeman is in the south-western portion of the state.

Also the START treaty has lead to the early retirement of the LGM-118 Peacekeeper ICBM, the USAF is dumping a ton of money into the refurbishing of the Minuteman Threes (they're getting the Peacekeeper's warheads), the MM3's have existing silos at Malmstrom AFB.. The plan is to keep them for "many more decades." The missile in the movie is modeled on the MM3, a new generation of ICBM's is unlikely to look exactly like a MM3. The silo has to be part of Malmstrom AFB.

Rather than conjecturing a new missile complex, it might be easier to believe in the establishment of a new community in central Montana named "Bozeman." Perhaps the former Bozeman was destroyed in the war because of the rumor that a new missile complex was being built there!


Wouldn't it just be easier to believe that Bozeman, Montana, in the Star Trek Universe is located in a different part of the state than its real-world counterpart? And why is it easier to believe in the establishment of an entire new town than in a new missile silo?

And it still can't be Malmstrom, because it's far too small. Malmstrom AFB is much larger than the small complex seen in ST:FC.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
federation, new members, worldbuilding

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:05 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.