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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 28 2010, 10:08 PM   #151
JarodRussell
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

http://www.tcf.ua.edu/Classes/Jbutle...mpFountain.jpg

http://www.theawl.com/wp-content/upl...a-painting.jpg

http://mesaseniors.org/kiah/images/picasso.jpg

http://madamepickwickartblog.com/wp-...1/picasso2.jpg

http://www.noutopia.com/Resources/pa...on_pollock.jpg

http://dreamdogsart.typepad.com/art/...he_guevara.jpg

http://www.robertlpeters.com/news/wp...ack_beuys2.jpg

http://chicagoartreview.com/wp-conte...1/bob-ross.jpg

http://www.gcms.k12.il.us/gcmsms/art...ion/Seurat.jpg

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/...1-p%20copy.jpg

What artwork is "better", ProtoAvatar? It's all art, there is NO objectivity.
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Old July 28 2010, 10:15 PM   #152
ProtoAvatar
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

JarodRussel

I don't claim to be an expert in art; I can only give you my subjective impression about those paintings/etc.

Unlike science, it's true that art does admit subjective opinion. You can like a work of art not considered valuable and not like someting treasured as excellent.
BUT this subjectivism only goes so far.
Any given work of art has an intrinsic objective value that doesn't change depending on whether you like it or not.

Star trek V is, objectively, NOT a good movie, JarodRussel.
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Old July 28 2010, 10:34 PM   #153
JarodRussell
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Any given work of art has an intrinsic objective value that doesn't change depending on whether you like it or not.
Where does that idea come from?


I don't claim to be an expert in art; I can only give you my subjective impression about those paintings/etc.
But you are an expert in movies, since you can give your objective assessments there?


Star trek V is, objectively, NOT a good movie.
By what standards?
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Old July 28 2010, 10:38 PM   #154
ConRefit79
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Any given work of art has an intrinsic objective value that doesn't change depending on whether you like it or not.
Where does that idea come from?


Star trek V is, objectively, NOT a good movie.
By what standards?
You're not going to change his mind. It is best to agree to disagree. At least he admitted the film's premise wasn't a total waste. He said with some more work on the script and a good effects house, it would be a decent film.
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Old July 28 2010, 10:43 PM   #155
ProtoAvatar
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Any given work of art has an intrinsic objective value that doesn't change depending on whether you like it or not.
Where does that idea come from?
I may not be an expert in art, but if you think an artwork has no objective value you obviously know nothing about art.

I don't claim to be an expert in art; I can only give you my subjective impression about those paintings/etc.
But you are an expert in movies, since you can give your objective assessments there?


Star trek V is, objectively, NOT a good movie.
By what standards?
I think I told twice already - read the professional reviews of star trek V. Made by experts in movies as a form of art.

I base my affirmations on theirs.
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Old July 28 2010, 10:45 PM   #156
JarodRussell
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
But you are an expert in movies, since you can give your objective assessments there?
Star trek V is, objectively, NOT a good movie.
By what standards?
I think I told twice already - read the professional reviews of star trek V. Made by experts in movies as a form of art.

I base my affirmations on theirs.
And we told you so many times now that reviewers are only giving their subjective opinion, like any art critic for any form of art, for crying out loud.



I may not be an expert in art, but if you think an artwork has no objective value you obviously know nothing about art.
Great argument. If you think artwork has any objective value you obviously know nothing about art. See, I can do that, too.
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Old July 28 2010, 10:46 PM   #157
ProtoAvatar
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And we told you so many times now that reviewers are only giving their subjective opinion, like any art critic for any form of art, for crying out loud.
Reviewers may give their subjective opinion, but prior to that, they also analyse the objective value of the artwork.

I may not be an expert in art, but if you think an artwork has no objective value you obviously know nothing about art.
Great argument. If you think artwork has any objective value you obviously know nothing about art. See, I can do that, too.
The difference is - art DOES have objective intrinsic value. Rembrant or da Vinci's works are, objectively, more valuable than garbage, JarodRussell.
Therefore, you're wrong.

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
You're not going to change his mind. It is best to agree to disagree. At least he admitted the film's premise wasn't a total waste. He said with some more work on the script and a good effects house, it would be a decent film.
ConRefit79, JarodRussell is the one who's not going to change his mind, regardless of how unsupportable his position becomes.

And yes, it's time to agree to disagree.
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Old July 28 2010, 10:51 PM   #158
JarodRussell
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

Reviewers may give their subjective opinion, but prior to that, they also analyse the objective value of the artwork.
And examples for these objective criteria upon which the objective value can be evaluated are...?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
ConRefit79, JarodRussell is the one who's not going to change his mind, regardless of how unsupportable his position becomes.
Just look into the mirror, and see yourself, dude.

And yes, as always, time to agree to disagree. But you know, since this happens a lot, not only between you and me, but between you and many others, you might start to objectively think about that. Of course, that's just a suggestion.
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Old July 28 2010, 10:55 PM   #159
ProtoAvatar
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Reviewers may give their subjective opinion, but prior to that, they also analyse the objective value of the artwork.
And examples for these objective criteria upon which the objective value can be evaluated are...?
I've already mentioned some of them more than once.

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
ConRefit79, JarodRussell is the one who's not going to change his mind, regardless of how unsupportable his position becomes.
Just look into the mirror, and see yourself, dude.

And yes, as always, time to agree to disagree. But you know, since this happens a lot, not only between you and me, but between you and many others, you might start to objectively think about that. Of course, that's just a suggestion.
You forget, JarodRussell, I've seen some of your posts.
Reasonable, you are NOT.

Which makes this post of yours unintentionally amusing.
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Old July 28 2010, 11:00 PM   #160
JarodRussell
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Reviewers may give their subjective opinion, but prior to that, they also analyse the objective value of the artwork.
And examples for these objective criteria upon which the objective value can be evaluated are...?
I've already mentioned some of them more than once.
Please, mention them again, I want to learn.
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Old July 28 2010, 11:06 PM   #161
ProtoAvatar
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And examples for these objective criteria upon which the objective value can be evaluated are...?
I've already mentioned some of them more than once.
Please, mention them again, I want to learn.
Highly unlikely.
You just want to contradict - perhaps because you're annoyed that I called you on your - let's euphemistically call it self-contradiction?

Read my previous posts and learn, as you claim to want.
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Old July 28 2010, 11:13 PM   #162
JarodRussell
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Highly unlikely.
You just want to contradict - perhaps because you're annoyed that I called you on your - let's euphemistically call it self-contradiction?

Read my previous posts and learn, as you claim to want.
Seriously, I can't find much.

You said this:

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
As for - there are no objective criteria by which to judge a work of art - well, this is absurd. What I find surprising is that such an obviously erroneous argument was even invoked by some in order to save their pet movie. Anything, just to avoid admitting the movie is sub-standard.
Objective criteria is what differentiates the artistic masterpieces from mediocre works - not how you happen to think about them.
For example, Rembrand's work is FAR better than the work of some untalented nobody, despite the fact that someone would like Rembrand's paintings less.
'Contact' is FAR better than 'Lost in space' even if someone would like 'Lost in space' more.
You said the idea that there are no objective criteria is absurd, yet you never gave an example of what such an objective criteria might be.

You never said WHY Rembrandt's work is FAR better. You also never said WHY Contact is FAR better.


You also said that the VFX are objectively garbage because of the wires. Then I answered that the evaluation "wires = garbage" is purely subjective. A statement you didn't reply to.


So I ask you, please clarify.
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Old July 29 2010, 12:22 AM   #163
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

One of my favorite scenes from the movie is the campfire scene. Now, I realize people cringe at "row, row, row, your boat", but I love that whole scene, and I love it specifically for McCoy's "I liked him better before he died" comment right after the song.

It's just a brilliant moment of interplay between the Big Three and a gem in the movie.
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Old July 29 2010, 12:30 AM   #164
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

Sarek of Vulcan wrote: View Post
One of my favorite scenes from the movie is the campfire scene. Now, I realize people cringe at "row, row, row, your boat", but I love that whole scene, and I love it specifically for McCoy's "I liked him better before he died" comment right after the song.

It's just a brilliant moment of interplay between the Big Three and a gem in the movie.
That scene usually is the one I use an example of the TOS crew being more together, more family, than the other crews in TNG, DS9, and Voyager.

Whatever behind the scenes BS over the years, this cast just worked in a way that I think the others never captured.
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Old July 29 2010, 12:48 AM   #165
Mjuice
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
The wiki page conclusively denied that "Conspiracy of Claudius Civilis" was considered substandard and despised in Rembrant's time and after. The picture was only rejected from a city hall.
Which denies your post.
No it doesn't. The reason it was rejected from the city hall was because it did not correspond to then current ideals and criteria regarding history painting. That's the whole point. It was not appreciated by most at the time. How hard is that for you to understand. The fact that Rembrandt had to resort to cutting it to pieces so that he could sell them should be evidence enough. The fact is the same is true of all of his later work which was not appreciated until much later.

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post

PS - And you STILL haven't answered me:
But, for all means, do point to Rembrant works that were obvious garbage at the time and now they're considered masterpieces. How many has he made? Over 2600? Find one.
I've answered you before you asked the question. My first example still stands. Besides what are you saying? That all works of art that are now considered masterpieces were always so regarded and immediately recognized as such? Because that's a pretty absurd claim to make.
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