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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 28 2010, 03:12 AM   #136
RookieBatman
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Star Trek V is, objectively, a VERY poor movie.
I don't think anyone can really say that any movie is objectively very good or very poor. Art is, by nature, purely subjective. The only objective standard you can use to determine quality is popularity, and that's hardly indicative of what most people consider quality. So, ultimately, even something like Manos can't really be called objectively bad, because there simply is no objective standard.

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
It can only be enjoyed for fan-boyish or nostalgic reasons.
I, personally, have no problem enjoying something purely for nostalgic reasons. Enjoyment is enjoyment, no matter the reason.
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Old July 28 2010, 03:23 AM   #137
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
if you don't care about Kirk&co (not caring about TOS), the movie has no other appeal.
I would think that the appeal of most movies is based on whether you care about the main characters. Sure, an action movie might have good action, but if you don't even like the character involved in the action, then you're not gonna enjoy it. So, saying the movie has no appeal if you don't like the main characters hardly means anything.

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg, to reiterate - star trek V is, objectively, a far sub-standard movie.
If you think otherwise - you're seeing the movie through rosy-coloured glasses.
I think that STXI is objectively a sub-standard movie, and that all the myriad people who think otherwise are seeing it through rose-colored glasses. People who liked it think the exact same thing about those of us who couldn't appreciate it.

Again, there is no objective standard. Any person's appreciation of a movie is based on personal tastes.

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Browse the internet for any review of the movie, if you want proof of this.
As has already been stated, this is hardly proof. Reviewers are also people, so they also have personal tastes. Their personal tastes will have an effect on their "objective" reviews, whether they realize it or not.

A movie is a movie. All that matters is whether you enjoyed it or not. There isn't much point in trying to "prove" to other people that they shouldn't enjoy it.

Now, if you want to discuss specific points that you didn't like about the movie, I'm all for that (although, I haven't seen it in a while).
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Old July 28 2010, 01:54 PM   #138
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

I doubt you will be able to change his mind, RookieBatman. He thinks movies can be objectively measured, that reviewers are objective, and has his own (rather weird) idea of what objectivity is. And we've learned from other threads that he will never agree with or even respect another person's opinion. Best thing is when he starts telling you what you think, as if he would know it better.

Movies are a form of art, so everything in them is solely subjective.

So you see wires in the VFX shots. That is a fact, I congratulate you. But the evaluation "wires = garbage" is subjective again. It's an opinion. And your opinion is no better than everyone else's opinion. So when one likes this "garbage", he/she is not "wrong" about it.

I also think the VFX are crap, compared to TVH anyway. Compared to TOS, they again look nice. But I don't say everybody who thinks otherwise is wrong, or deluded, or lying, like you constantly do.
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Old July 28 2010, 02:11 PM   #139
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Or, even simpler, watch the movie. Not alone - with a non-trek-fan friend. After the movie, ask him what he thought about the special effects.
If a majority of people have an opinion as to the quality of something it still doesn't make it any more objective or "true". If 99 people out of a hundred think the effects are "garbage" it's still just the subjective opinion of those people. All qualitative valuations are by definition subjective.
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Old July 28 2010, 07:26 PM   #140
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

The only argument for star trek V seems to be that there are no objective criteria by which to judge art - and this movie - (which is, of course, wrong).
Why? Because, when such criteria are applied to it, star trek V is found lacking.

As for - there are no objective criteria by which to judge a work of art - well, this is absurd. What I find surprising is that such an obviously erroneous argument was even invoked by some in order to save their pet movie. Anything, just to avoid admitting the movie is sub-standard.
Objective criteria is what differentiates the artistic masterpieces from mediocre works - not how you happen to think about them.
For example, Rembrand's work is FAR better than the work of some untalented nobody, despite the fact that someone would like Rembrand's paintings less.
'Contact' is FAR better than 'Lost in space' even if someone would like 'Lost in space' more.

RookieBatman, I read part of your anti star trek XI rant in trek lit forum. You're upset it does away with your cherished continuity; you refuse to judge the movie on its own merits. Which is as subjective as it gets.
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Old July 28 2010, 07:48 PM   #141
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Objective criteria is what differentiates the artistic masterpieces from mediocre works - not how you happen to think about them.
For example, Rembrand's work is FAR better than the work of some untalented nobody, despite the fact that someone would like Rembrand's paintings less.
'Contact' is FAR better than 'Lost in space' even if someone would like 'Lost in space' more.
So who is it that defines these objective criteria. Let's consider Rembrandt for example. During his lifetime and long after all of his later work such as Conspiracy of Claudius Civilis, was considered substandard and was despised. Only much later were they re-evaluated and are now considered masterpieces. Why is that? It's because the criteria used to judge them changed. It's because the criteria are subjective and represent the values and tastes of the society, people and time that are making the evaluation.

There just is no such thing as an objective criteria by which to judge the quality of something. Who's to say that 500 years from now some very smart art critics will "see" some qualities in "Lost in Space" that make them value it much more highly than "Contact"

You're opinion of Star Trek V is absolutely valid and you are entitled to it, but it is absolutely ridiculous to claim that your opinion is "objectively true" or in some other way more "true" than that of someone who likes the movie.
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Old July 28 2010, 08:25 PM   #142
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

Mjuice

"Conspiracy of Claudius Civilis" was rejected from a city hall, apparently, for "lack of the decorum felt necessary for history painting, lack of finish and an insufficiently heroic approach to the story"; "because Rembrant did not have enough supporters in the right places".
And the picture was only removed from a city hall; it was definitely NOT considered substandard and despised in Rembrant's time and after.
You will need to find a far better example than this.

But, for all means, do point to Rembrant works that were obvious garbage at the time and now they're considered masterpieces. How many has he made? Over 2600? Find one.


Your entire post is based on the assumption that no given work of art is intrinsically better than any other work - which is non-sense.
By your argument, a Rembrant's intrinsic value is comparable to the value of the food leftovers you just threw in the garbage bin.
After all, who knows, maybe some hypothetical future generation will like these leftovers better (good luck with that one, BTW).
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Old July 28 2010, 08:58 PM   #143
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post

"Conspiracy of Claudius Civilis" was rejected from a city hall, apparently, for "lack of the decorum felt necessary for history painting, lack of finish and an insufficiently heroic approach to the story"; "because Rembrant did not have enough supporters in the right places".
And the picture was only removed from a city hall; it was definitely NOT considered substandard and despised in Rembrant's time and after.
You will need to find a far better example than this.
Well I'm really no expert but as far as I know you are wrong. It was rejected mainly because it didn't meet the idea that the people who comissioned it had of such a work. In other words it didn't meet their subjective criteria, which were a reflection of the subjective tastes of the time and society. He then even had to resort to cutting to pieces to sell it. Seems to me it's a pretty good example of what we're talking about.

Anyway there are lots of artists and even whole art movements that were at times and places considered inferior or substandard, that were at other times and places praised to high heavens. It all depends on who's doing the considering you see. They set the criteria. The criteria doesn't exist outside them.

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
By your argument, a Rembrant's intrinsic value is comparable to the value of the food leftovers you just threw in the garbage bin.
After all, who knows, maybe some hypothetical future generation will like these leftovers better (good luck with that one, BTW).
Yes now you're getting it. The food leftover do indeed have the same intrinsic value. It's only the people with their subjective opinion on things that give the artworks more value. The leftovers might be more valuable to some bugs or cockroaches or something that eat them.
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Old July 28 2010, 09:09 PM   #144
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

Mjuice

About "Conspiracy of Claudius Civilis":
"As far as you know" translates to insufficient knowledge, apparently:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspir...audius_Civilis

And, again, Mjuice:
But, for all means, do point to Rembrant works that were obvious garbage at the time and now they're considered masterpieces. How many has he made? Over 2600? Find one.


"Yes now you're getting it. The food leftover do indeed have the same intrinsic value. It's only the people with their subjective opinion on things that give the artworks more value. The leftovers might be more valuable to some bugs or cockroaches or something that eat them. "

I'll assume this is joke, Mjuice.
But, just in case it's not:
Your entire post is based on the assumption that no given work of art is intrinsically better than any other work - which is non-sense.
By your argument, a Rembrant's intrinsic value is comparable to the value of the food leftovers you just threw in the garbage bin.
After all, who knows, maybe some hypothetical future generation will like these leftovers better (good luck with that one, BTW).
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Old July 28 2010, 09:21 PM   #145
Mjuice
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Mjuice

About "Conspiracy of Claudius Civilis":
"As far as you know" translates to insufficient knowledge, apparently:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspir...audius_Civilis

And, again, Mjuice:
But, for all means, do point to Rembrant works that were obvious garbage at the time and now they're considered masterpieces. How many has he made? Over 2600? Find one.


"Yes now you're getting it. The food leftover do indeed have the same intrinsic value. It's only the people with their subjective opinion on things that give the artworks more value. The leftovers might be more valuable to some bugs or cockroaches or something that eat them. "

I'll assume this is joke, Mjuice.
But, just in case it's not:
Your entire post is based on the assumption that no given work of art is intrinsically better than any other work - which is non-sense.
By your argument, a Rembrant's intrinsic value is comparable to the value of the food leftovers you just threw in the garbage bin.
After all, who knows, maybe some hypothetical future generation will like these leftovers better (good luck with that one, BTW).
Wait, is this one of those argumentation tactics where when you run out of arguments you just repeat what you said earlier until the other side gives up?
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Old July 28 2010, 09:25 PM   #146
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

Mjuice

I already negated so-called argument - easily (that's because your 'argument' is absurd).

And you're the one who ran out of arguments and recorses to jalf-jokes and rhetoric.
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Old July 28 2010, 09:31 PM   #147
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Your entire post is based on the assumption that no given work of art is intrinsically better than any other work - which is non-sense.
It's not nonsense. It's the fundamental truth to the perception of reality.

To suggest otherwise implies everyone sees everything the same--any conflicting opinion would then be false.

You could have a 100 guys in one corner who firmly believe Hamlet is the pinnacle of the human storyform, 50 guys in another corner say it's The Iliad, and one guy in the last corner says it's Dude Where's My Car?

Who's to say who is right? How do you tell? The Majority? What if the majority insists 2+2=5? Does that suddenly make it so?

Twilight is more popular than Dracula. Is it now the definitive vampire tale?
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Old July 28 2010, 09:34 PM   #148
Mjuice
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Mjuice

I already negated so-called argument - easily (that's because your 'argument' is absurd).

And you're the one who ran out of arguments and recorses to jalf-jokes and rhetoric.
Hm, well you responded to one of my arguments by linking a wikipedia page which doesn't refute anything I've said as far as I can see (and even if it did it's irrelevant to the point whether or not this particular example qualifies, which I'd say it does) and to another by trying to dismiss it as a joke. I'd say I'm happily un-negated
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Old July 28 2010, 09:36 PM   #149
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

CorporalClegg

"Who's to say who is right? How do you tell? The Majority? What if the majority insists 2+2=5? Does that suddenly make it so?"

EXACTLY, CorporalClegg.
Just because the majority could say 2+2=5 does NOT mean this is true.
Why?
Because, OBJECTIVELY, 2+2=4.

Similarly, just because some fans like star trek V - because it's TOS related, mostly - doesn not mean star trek V is a good movie.
Because, in accordance to the overwhelming majority of the objective, measurable, art critical criterions (plot, pacing, image, SFX, etc), star trek V is NOT a good mmovie.
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Old July 28 2010, 09:42 PM   #150
ProtoAvatar
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Re: Just watched Star Trek V - pros and cons

Mjuice wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Mjuice

I already negated so-called argument - easily (that's because your 'argument' is absurd).

And you're the one who ran out of arguments and recorses to jalf-jokes and rhetoric.
Hm, well you responded to one of my arguments by linking a wikipedia page which doesn't refute anything I've said as far as I can see (and even if it did it's irrelevant to the point whether or not this particular example qualifies, which I'd say it does) and to another by trying to dismiss it as a joke. I'd say I'm happily un-negated
So that was not a joke - and me, who gave you the benefit of the doubt.

The wiki page conclusively denied that "Conspiracy of Claudius Civilis" was considered substandard and despised in Rembrant's time and after. The picture was only rejected from a city hall.
Which denies your post.

And what's that non-sense with cockroaches and subjective appreciation? The cockroaches are not even close to having the ability to 'subjective' anything.

PS - And you STILL haven't answered me:
But, for all means, do point to Rembrant works that were obvious garbage at the time and now they're considered masterpieces. How many has he made? Over 2600? Find one.

Last edited by ProtoAvatar; July 28 2010 at 09:53 PM.
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