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Old July 20 2010, 08:50 PM   #151
Kegg
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

stj wrote: View Post
As for it being a heist movie, lots of the action sequences are boring. Only the free fall sequence is genuinely successful. The cliches about running from Cobol Corporation are so tiresome as to make people wonder whether the whole movie's a dream.
You know that did cross my mind during the scene where he's being chased by Cobol. Arbitrary villains... or a nightmare?

While I had elaborate theories in my head about maybe the whole thing being a dream (and I had a sneaking suspicion that Ariadne = Mol; I can just imagine Cobb being introduced to Mol as the star pupil in Nicholas Cage's class...); I'd generally discount that for the existence of opposite viewpoints in the film.

How did DiCaprio and Watanabe escape from limbo?
They don't. The film pretty much telegraphs this with two very obvious details at the end: That DiCaprio's children are unchanged; rising to greet him just as they may have done but did not in his memory (it's far too picture perfect to be anything other than a fantasy moment), and, of course, the spinning top. While I like to toy with the idea the whole movie is a dream; just cause, the cleaner explanation is that the movie is real and DiCaprio's escape and awakening at the very end is imaginary.
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Old July 20 2010, 09:09 PM   #152
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

Kegg wrote: View Post
They don't. The film pretty much telegraphs this with two very obvious details at the end: That DiCaprio's children are unchanged; rising to greet him just as they may have done but did not in his memory (it's far too picture perfect to be anything other than a fantasy moment), and, of course, the spinning top. While I like to toy with the idea the whole movie is a dream; just cause, the cleaner explanation is that the movie is real and DiCaprio's escape and awakening at the very end is imaginary.
The top will fall. The precession (the way the axis of spin itself revolves) means it will fall. I don't know whether people don't understand the physics or just didn't see it, but the top is beginning to fall. It is not necessary to see it actually hit the table to know this. The rules of the game say, if the top falls, it's reality.

As for the children being unchanged, there are two quite simple objections. First, a practical one, which is that insisting that Nolan wait a few more years so that he could photograph changed children seems an excessive demand for verisimilitude. This is especially true when the whole movie is full of so-called dreams that are instead virtual reality fantasies. Changing the children would have made it difficult for the audience to recognize them, especially since their faces were turned away.

Second, and more important, DiCaprio will no more accept a false reality than Watanabe would. Watanabe realized it was a dream because the carpet fibers were wrong. DiCaprio isn't going to notice his children never changed? Nor is it clear who would be creating this pretty fantasy, since it was DiCaprio who created one for Cotillard before.

The DiCaprio/Cotillard confrontation in limbo was pretty lifeless, partly because Page prompted the action, instead of a more organic rejection by DiCaprio of the false Cotillard. Nonetheless, there was supposed to be some sort of catharsis. DiCaprio being satisfied with a dream and refusing to look undoes this decision! DiCaprio moving on because, seeing reality, no longer needs the reassurance of the test, makes just as much sense.

It is Murphy's catharsis, which raises the question of whether dreams are as good as reality. That supplies all the ambiguity needed. But the movie, despite its originality, just isn't very well written. The point is lost in all the hugger mugger.

If, however, you insist on thinking the point is that DiCaprio hasn't escaped, doesn't that just leave the entire movie unresolved? By the rules of the game, DiCaprio and Watanabe will awaken, when the sedative wears off. What then? DiCaprio actually has to make a dramatic choice, this time without prompting from Page. Shouldn't that be the conclusion of the movie?
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Old July 20 2010, 09:11 PM   #153
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

Kegg wrote: View Post
While I had elaborate theories in my head about maybe the whole thing being a dream (and I had a sneaking suspicion that Ariadne = Mol; I can just imagine Cobb being introduced to Mol as the star pupil in Nicholas Cage's class...); I'd generally discount that for the existence of opposite viewpoints in the film.
Same here. There are several scenes (not to mention action sequences) where Cobb is no where around. And while I HAVE had dreams where I became someone else (a character in a movie, for instance), I have a hard time believing Cobb really imagined himself as every one of the characters in this movie.
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Old July 20 2010, 09:20 PM   #154
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

davejames wrote: View Post
Kegg wrote: View Post
While I had elaborate theories in my head about maybe the whole thing being a dream (and I had a sneaking suspicion that Ariadne = Mol; I can just imagine Cobb being introduced to Mol as the star pupil in Nicholas Cage's class...); I'd generally discount that for the existence of opposite viewpoints in the film.
Same here. There are several scenes (not to mention action sequences) where Cobb is no where around. And while I HAVE had dreams where I became someone else (a character in a movie, for instance), I have a hard time believing Cobb really imagined himself as every one of the characters in this movie.
As I've made the same point less clearly, obviously I agree. The opening sequence is not very realistic, but Nolan doesn't do realism. Remember it is no more unrealistic than the conclusion. If the one must be labeled a dream because it's unrealistic, then the other must. The movie, however, isn't all that well written: Just because weird stuff happens doesn't mean it's a dream, it may just mean it's badly written!
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Old July 20 2010, 09:31 PM   #155
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

stj wrote: View Post
The top will fall. The precession (the way the axis of spin itself revolves) means it will fall. I don't know whether people don't understand the physics or just didn't see it, but the top is beginning to fall. It is not necessary to see it actually hit the table to know this.
Well sure, being that it's not a CG effect, it will obviously show physical signs of eventually falling over like any real spinning top would.

But the question is whether that was the intention by Nolan, or whether we're supposed to suspend disbelief (like in any scifi movie using practical effects) and accept that it actually DOES go on spinning forever.
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Old July 20 2010, 09:34 PM   #156
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

davejames wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
The top will fall. The precession (the way the axis of spin itself revolves) means it will fall. I don't know whether people don't understand the physics or just didn't see it, but the top is beginning to fall. It is not necessary to see it actually hit the table to know this.
Well sure, being that it's not a CG effect, it will obviously show physical signs of eventually falling over like any real spinning top would.

But the question is whether that was the intention by Nolan, or whether we're supposed to suspend disbelief (like in any scifi movie) and accept that it actually DOES go on spinning forever.
Yes. Makes perfect sense. Nolan fucked up the entire ending of his movie because he couldn't edit-in a CGI top, loop the shot of the ending, or do something along those line to make the top seem to spin without failing. Nope, he fucked up and through the editing, screening before signing off on the final edit of the film and all of that he left the failing top in the final cut.

Brilliant. The ending of a movie fucked up because a director forgot about physics.

The lengths some people will go to.
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Old July 20 2010, 09:38 PM   #157
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

Someone suggested that Nolan is soon to join the ranks of Spielberg and jump into producing.

Imagine a tv series produced by Nolan based on Inception

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Old July 20 2010, 10:12 PM   #158
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Yes. Makes perfect sense. Nolan fucked up the entire ending of his movie because he couldn't edit-in a CGI top, loop the shot of the ending, or do something along those line to make the top seem to spin without failing. Nope, he fucked up and through the editing, screening before signing off on the final edit of the film and all of that he left the failing top in the final cut.

Brilliant. The ending of a movie fucked up because a director forgot about physics.

The lengths some people will go to.
If it had continued spinning perfectly after so long, there'd be no ambiguity that it was a dream. If we actually saw it fall over, there'd be no ambiguity that it was reality. Both would've failed the intent of creating ambiguity. So it wobbles, but it doesn't fall. May recover, probably won't. May disappear and reappear laying on a completely different table.
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Old July 20 2010, 10:35 PM   #159
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

There is no top.
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Old July 20 2010, 10:39 PM   #160
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

The top is a lie
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Old July 20 2010, 11:08 PM   #161
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

Lol, I have a feeling Nolan could have held the camera on the spinning top for a full 5 minutes, and people would still maintain that it was just about to fall over before the screen went black.
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Old July 20 2010, 11:49 PM   #162
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

T'Baio wrote: View Post
So you're saying you palpably felt when you woke up like you had just lived for days? You had experienced every minute of those days?
I said nothing like that, and no one dreams with such detail.


Or are you saying days passed by? Because days can pass, but the moments within the dream in which you're "doing something" most likely did not add up to days. In that case, it would be "doing something for two minutes, then it's the afternoon, and you do something for five minutes, then it's the next morning and you do something for three minutes, and it's a day later." That's not actually having days experienced in your dream, just days pass by.
Probably that's how it works mechanically, as REM states are only 15 minutes max, but the perception is - and everything about a dream is just imagination/perception - that it lasts far longer.

So many times between 5-minute snooze cycles on the morning alarm I dreamt I went to school or work, attended full classes, had some wild adventures, etc. then woke in a panic thinking I missed the whole day and find it's just a few minutes later in real time and I actually still had to live my day. Then I'd get depressed 'cuz it was like going to school or work twice in a day - that's how real and detailed it was.

Anyone can recall a 2-week vacation in very elaborate detail with just 15 minutes of thinking about it, especially if there are visuals to help. "A picture is worth a thousand words" and who knows how many minutes of perception.

That's what the film is playing on, quite factually. Any 1st year psych student has probably read numerous studies on same.

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Old July 21 2010, 12:08 AM   #163
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

Kegg wrote: View Post
Canadave wrote: View Post
Personally, for what it's worth, I'd put Inception on about the same level as Moon,
I guess my wording wasn't clear. I was comparing those three films to Minority Report, not Inception (which, yes, was a film I enjoyed immensely.)
My mistake. In that case, I agree with you: Minority Report is quite good, but just short of being on the same level of the films you named.

I think we can all probably agree that it's nice to see a well-made, original SF film doing well at the box office.
I'm surprised that is - but not that surprised. Nolan is a master and combining smart and popular; and Inception is clearly a shining example of that - psychological problems, high concept, bizarrely thought out ideas... and 'splosions and a heist movie plot.
Indeed. I almost wonder if in twenty years time, Chris Nolan will be on a similar level to directors like Speilberg and Kubrick. He's certainly managed to put together a damned impressive filmography after just over a decade of work.
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Old July 21 2010, 12:22 AM   #164
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

I hope he takes the Kubrick route--producing and directing his own work--rather than the Spielberg route of producing and executive producing dozens of projects at a time that entail little creative involvement.

It will be interesting to see if Nolan's role as an executive producer of the next Superman project will be a one-time move or a sign of the role he'll be taking in Hollywood for years to come.
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Old July 21 2010, 12:24 AM   #165
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Brilliant. The ending of a movie fucked up because a director forgot about physics.

The lengths some people will go to.

Lengths such as making up stuff that didn't happen in the actual film because it suits their conclusions.

It doesn't topple. And saying the kids had to look the same at the end to avoid confusing the audience doesn't wash. First, we've never seen them and we're expecting them to be older so any larger kids would do, and second if that really was a concern the kids didn't need to be shown at all. It could've ended with the passport stamp and no need for the top spin. (Passport stamp - *BANG* roll credits ... did he get a pass or a fail? tune in next year...). Mal (French for "bad", the character's actual name) didn't need to be magically across the street (or courtyard, if there is one that we're not shown) to affect the suicide scene.

Stuff is either done & shown for a reason or the film is a bunch of massive holes, thus a typical schlockbuster and we're giving Nolan far too much credit.

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