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Old July 11 2010, 05:12 AM   #151
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
Point conceded. I just feel that given what is known about the Andorians and their culture on Memory Alpha, that they are more militant and aggressive. Their military is an Imperial Guard after all, which denotes an empire which in turn is inherently aggressive and militant. With a violent history as we know must have been due to the Aenar passivity and their inherent dislike of Andorians in general because of the latter's violent tendencies, it makes sense for the Andorians to be a part of a political entity which has a number of aggressive, expansionist, xenophobic species already.

Just my two cents, for whatever they're worth.
Well, first off, I want to make sure you don't feel like I'm harassing you or trying to belittle you. It's nothing personal, but I think you're raising a few points that need to be addressed.

And that's this: You're basically citing things like names and the Aenar/Andorian antipathy, but you're not citing actual behavior or policies. Yes, there's an Andorian Imperial Guard, and apparently the Andorian state is called the Andorian Empire. But that doesn't actually mean they're an aggressive, expansionist, or xenophobic people. I mean, hell, there are numerous "Imperial" institutions over in the United Kingdom, and Great Britain hasn't had an empire for two generations now.

The Andorians could easily have had an imperialistic phase in their history without that being their present-day policy, and names like "Andorian Empire" can be largely ceremonial. In fact, the novel Andor: Paradigm by Heather Jarman established that the Andorian state is legally a constitutional monarchy, with an Empty Throne as the vacant but legal head of state and a cabinet chosen from the majority party of the Parliament Andoria as the actual leaders.

And goodness knows that we've never seen any evidence that the Andorians have any subject worlds they've conquered. Even on their own world, the Andorians allowed the Aenar to remain legally and culturally independent -- even though the Andorians looked down on the Aenar's pacifism, and even though the Aenar looked down on the Andorians' willingness to use violence in self-defense. That hardly seems like the behavior of a genuinely aggressive, expansionistic, xenophobic culture to me.

And we've never seen evidence of Andorian xenophobia. Goodness knows Andorians were a hell of a lot more accepting and respectful of Human culture than Vulcans were in ENT.
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Old July 11 2010, 06:46 PM   #152
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

Though I am becoming American, I am still British and know of no "Imperial" institutions in the UK, so please tell me what they are. I never said that the Andorians were expansionist and not all empires are all the time, most empires go through expansionist phases, certainly, but a constant state of expansion is a sure way for an empire to fall as more than a few have in the past.

I cannot cite specific behaviours and policies, precisely because we have barely seen anything to go on in canon Trek, and there has just been Shar in the DS9 novels and Heather's novella on Andor to give us anything on the Andorians' culture in the twenty-fourth century. Even Enterprise hardly gave us anything on the Andorians, just allowing a glimpse of the Andorian Imperial Guard as seen through the eyes of a single man, Shran.

I'm not saying that the Andorians are currently miliant and xenophobic, or even expansionist, they can't be to be a Federation member state. What I am saying is that in the wake of the Borg invasion, the military or some other aspect of Andorian culture may well decide that the Typhon Pact represents a more realistic view on the galaxy than the overburdened Federation. After all, the members of the Typhon Pact combined probably do not make up half the volume of Federation space.
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Old July 11 2010, 08:33 PM   #153
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
Though I am becoming American, I am still British and know of no "Imperial" institutions in the UK,
The Imperial College of Science, Technology, and Medicine (aka, Imperial College London). Its students union is the Imperial College Union, and its constituents include the Imperial College School of Medicine and the Imperial College Business School. Affiliated is the the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust.

The Imperial War Museum in London. Its branches, Imperial War Museum North in Manchester and Imperial War Museum Duxford in Cambridgeshire.

The Imperial State Crown is one of the Crown Jewels of the United Kingdom, worn by Her Majesty during every State Opening of Parliament and traditionally worn at the end of every royal coronation.

There's even the Imperial Tobacco Group, the world's fourth-largest international tobacco company, and Imperial Buses, which provides public transport in Greater London.

I'm not saying that the Andorians are currently miliant and xenophobic, or even expansionist, they can't be to be a Federation member state. What I am saying is that in the wake of the Borg invasion, the military or some other aspect of Andorian culture may well decide that the Typhon Pact represents a more realistic view on the galaxy than the overburdened Federation. After all, the members of the Typhon Pact combined probably do not make up half the volume of Federation space.
Fair enough -- and I think that's a more realistic assessment of Andorian culture than what you seemed to me saying before.
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Old July 11 2010, 09:43 PM   #154
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
Their military is an Imperial Guard after all, which denotes an empire which in turn is inherently aggressive and militant.
That doesn't follow. An empire is a multicultural political entity in which one state rules over a number of others. Not every empire is created by military conquest. A lot of subjects of historical empires have been persuaded to join voluntarily because of the benefits they could gain: the resources of a large empire, the access to its economic, educational, cultural, and other institutions, the protection of its military, etc. True, there's often been an implicit threat of conquest if you didn't play along voluntarily, but that's just history for you. Empire is motivated by a state's pursuit of economic growth, resources, security -- the same things that motivate any state. It's not an indicator of a particularly savage nature, it's simply one solution to the economic, cultural, and political needs of a state. It can be built on altruistic motives, even if misguided ones. The British Empire was built on the sincere if condescending belief that the rest of the world would be better off and happier if they learned to do things the British way. If they resisted, it meant they were the savage ones who needed to be controlled by force for their own protection. Sure, from a postcolonial perspective we can see how arrogant and domineering that was, but the British themselves weren't motivated by the desire for blood and combat and brutality (well, not all of them were).
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Old July 11 2010, 10:42 PM   #155
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

Sci wrote: View Post
The Imperial College of Science, Technology, and Medicine (aka, Imperial College London). Its students union is the Imperial College Union, and its constituents include the Imperial College School of Medicine and the Imperial College Business School. Affiliated is the the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust.

The Imperial War Museum in London. Its branches, Imperial War Museum North in Manchester and Imperial War Museum Duxford in Cambridgeshire.

The Imperial State Crown is one of the Crown Jewels of the United Kingdom, worn by Her Majesty during every State Opening of Parliament and traditionally worn at the end of every royal coronation.

There's even the Imperial Tobacco Group, the world's fourth-largest international tobacco company, and Imperial Buses, which provides public transport in Greater London.
I was referring to the military aspects of imperial nature, not academic institutions created during the time of the empire or in honour of/by the Crown.

The UK does not now practice anything imperial in nature other than a measurement system which is also used in part by the United States (miles and liquids)
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Old July 11 2010, 10:54 PM   #156
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

^ That's Sci's point, though-- the Imperial Guard could have easily acquired its name during an earlier era or somesuch. It doesn't mean that the Andorians now practice imperialistic policies.

Some people in this discussion might be interested in picking up The Tears of Eridanus come December.
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Old July 11 2010, 11:02 PM   #157
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

Christopher, since I am British, much of my knowledge of history, indeed most of it, comes from being taught history by the victors of a sort, and is of course skewed. Throughout my schooling, I was always taught that being an empire, Britain was necessarily aggressive so that its neighbours did not have the ability to counter us at any turn which they were wont to do after the way we had mistreated them as subjects, allies or indeed enemies. And indeed the British Empire fell, as all empires do.

Even the Federation will fall at some stage, for it is still an empire, benign as it may be in most cases.

Anyways, I think I need to find a copy of the magazine. Either my subscription has run out or the British distribution is screwing up sending my copy overseas, again.
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Old July 11 2010, 11:41 PM   #158
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

TerraUnam wrote: View Post
The Andorians, Humans and Vulcans all signed on to the Federation as equals, but their population curves have been anything but.

And then T'Ryssa Chen walks in the room.
"Chen, what kind of experience do you have with Andorians?"

"Both kinds of girls, and one of the guys. The butch ones."

""
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Old July 12 2010, 05:22 AM   #159
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
Christopher, since I am British, much of my knowledge of history, indeed most of it, comes from being taught history by the victors of a sort, and is of course skewed. Throughout my schooling, I was always taught that being an empire, Britain was necessarily aggressive so that its neighbours did not have the ability to counter us at any turn which they were wont to do after the way we had mistreated them as subjects, allies or indeed enemies. And indeed the British Empire fell, as all empires do.
Jeez, and I thought American school teachers had a thing about painting America as the international bad guy. It's amazing there aren't mass suicides in Britain out of historical guilt.

May I recommand Simon Schama's "A History of Britain" for a slightly more balanced approach?
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Old July 12 2010, 08:01 AM   #160
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
The Imperial College of Science, Technology, and Medicine (aka, Imperial College London). Its students union is the Imperial College Union, and its constituents include the Imperial College School of Medicine and the Imperial College Business School. Affiliated is the the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust.

The Imperial War Museum in London. Its branches, Imperial War Museum North in Manchester and Imperial War Museum Duxford in Cambridgeshire.

The Imperial State Crown is one of the Crown Jewels of the United Kingdom, worn by Her Majesty during every State Opening of Parliament and traditionally worn at the end of every royal coronation.

There's even the Imperial Tobacco Group, the world's fourth-largest international tobacco company, and Imperial Buses, which provides public transport in Greater London.
I was referring to the military aspects of imperial nature, not academic institutions created during the time of the empire or in honour of/by the Crown.
Ah, see, what I meant was, there are institutions that bear the word "Imperial" in their name without that meaning that the United Kingdom now has an empire.

The UK does not now practice anything imperial in nature other than a measurement system which is also used in part by the United States (miles and liquids)
Which was exactly my point: Just as the Andorian Imperial Guard's name does not necessarily mean that Andor is an imperial power, the names of these institutions in the U.K. does not necessarily mean that Great Britain is an imperial power.
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Old July 12 2010, 08:27 AM   #161
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

Sci

The name of those institutions means that Britain was once an empire, even if it is not one anymore.
Similarly, Andoria was, at one point in time, an empire.

In any case, the passionate, warrior-nature of the andorians was established on several on-screen ocasions - even directly.
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Old July 12 2010, 08:48 AM   #162
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Making the andorians leave the federation could actually be beneficial for the andorians
IIRC, the concept of a threat of an Andorian secession from the UFP dates way back to Fred & Stan Goldstein's "ST Spaceflight Chronology" (1980).

Diane Duane had Vulcan threaten a UFP secession in "Spock's World". And PAD had the humorous Caitian "when they were in, they wanted to be out and, when they were out, they wanted to be in" shtick in "NF: Gateways: Cold Wars".

pookha wrote: View Post
and in telev we hear about the importance of family to andorians which seems to balance out the agressive nature.
That was Thelin in "Yesteryear" (TAS). Thelev (TOS) was an Orion in disguise and there was a Telev in ENT.
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Old July 12 2010, 07:43 PM   #163
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
Christopher, since I am British, much of my knowledge of history, indeed most of it, comes from being taught history by the victors of a sort, and is of course skewed. Throughout my schooling, I was always taught that being an empire, Britain was necessarily aggressive so that its neighbours did not have the ability to counter us at any turn which they were wont to do after the way we had mistreated them as subjects, allies or indeed enemies.
But again, that's aggression as a political stance of a government, which is not the same thing as aggression in the sense of a savage individual lusting for blood. Like I said, it's a mistake to confuse the policies of the state with the psychology of the individuals. A society that prides itself on civility, morality, and self-control, like Victorian England, can be politically aggressive because it deems it necessary for state security, even if that differs from their behavior as individuals. By the same token, it follows that a culture that values and promotes individual aggressiveness could have a government that chooses to be nonaggressive on a state level because it's in their best political or economic interest to do so. So just because Shras said that individual Andorians are driven by fierce passions, that says nothing about whether the Andorian government is pursuing policies of military aggression. Those are questions operating on two completely different levels.
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Old July 12 2010, 08:14 PM   #164
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

Christopher, I now see the point you were trying to make before. My apologies for being blinded by my own imperial behaviour
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Old July 12 2010, 08:45 PM   #165
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Re: Massive New Trek Lit Update in Star Trek Magazine

Britain still is an Empire. Gibraltar, the Falklands, South Georgia, South Shetlands, Channel Islands and Diego Garcia are all our Empire consists of, outside the mother country, but still...

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